S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
This channel confronts power, exposes institutional failure, and gives a platform to people willing to tell the truth when silence is easier and safer. We cover the stories the military, media, and influencers would rather bury, because reform does not happen without friction.
S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
Military Stories You Are Not Told | Jennifer Barnhill - S.O.S. #253
Who decides which military stories get told—and which ones never make it past the draft? We sit down with journalist and Navy spouse Jennifer Barnhill to uncover how narratives about service, sacrifice, and family support are shaped, sanitized, and sometimes silenced. Her new book challenges the usual focus on weapons and missions by centering the lived reality of military families: underemployment, licensure barriers, food insecurity, and the hidden costs of constant moves.
Jennifer maps the gap between policy and practice, from mold in privatized housing to memos without enforcement. We explore how “resilience” can be misread as “no help needed,” leading to families being denied support at their most vulnerable moments. She shares a powerful historical lens through the League of Wives—Vietnam-era spouses who broke through with evidence, strategy, and courage—and offers practical guidance on when to escalate, how to document, and where public pressure can drive real change.
We also dig into difficult terrain: disability standards that differ for recruits and those already serving, inconsistent recruiting practices, and the chilling effect of speech limits on service members and spouses. The thread that ties it together is simple: honest stories are not a luxury; they are the system’s early warning and its path to repair. If leaders want stronger recruitment and retention, they need clearer data, transparent processes, and open forums that welcome hard questions.
Listen to rethink what support should look like in an all-volunteer force that still relies on an all-volunteer family network. Then share this with someone who needs to be heard—and someone who needs to hear it. If this conversation resonated, follow the show, leave a review, and tell us: which military family story should be told next?
Visit my website: https://thehello.llc/THERESACARPENTER
Read my writings on my blog: https://www.theresatapestries.com/
Listen to other episodes on my podcast: https://storiesofservice.buzzsprout.com
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https://www.youtube.com/c/TheresaCarpenter76
Who gets to tell the story of the US military? And then who pays the price when those stories are filtered, sanitized, or ignored? And who are telling the stories specifically of the military families and the spouses? Oftentimes we see military news about the troops, about the sacrifices, about the weapons, about the hardware, but we don't often understand truly the stories of the military families. And someone who has made a huge contribution in that effort is Milit Navy spouse and journalist researcher Jennifer Barnhill. How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_02:Great. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to chat with you a little bit more.
SPEAKER_01:I'm excited to chat with you. We've known each other now, I think, for a couple of years. We met at the Military Influencer Conference, uh, not last year, uh, when I was there very briefly, but the year uh before. And uh it was a wonderful uh opportunity to actually sit down and have coffee with you and get to know you. And then we've just kind of kept in touch ever since. You interviewed me for a story about military influencers. And I follow you on social media and a lot of the posts. And then when you wrote the book that we're going to talk about today, I knew at some point I was A, gonna read the book, and then B, I was hoping you would come on the podcast. And you did. Here you are. So welcome to the Stories of Service podcast, ordinary people who do extraordinary work. I'm the host of Stories of Service, and to get this podcast started, as we always do, an introduction from my father, another broadcaster, Charlie Pickard.
SPEAKER_00:From the moment we're born and lock eyes with our parents, we are inspiring others. By showing up as a vessel of service, we not only help others, we help ourselves. Welcome to SOS Stories of Service, hosted by Teresa Carpenter, here from ordinary people from all walks of life who have transformed their communities by performing extraordinary work.
SPEAKER_01:And Jennifer is a journalist, researcher, and one of the most influential advocates for military families today. She is the host of Military Dinner Table Conversations, a reverse town hall that captures what military families are actually saying when the cameras are off and the uniforms are hung up. Those conversations, she argues, are the shaping the future of recruitment and retention more than any marketing campaign ever could. And today we're going to talk about those unseen forces behind the all-volunteer military families. Her path into this work was anything but planned. She walked away from a fully funded PhD scholarship after falling in love with a Navy service member. Like many military spouses, yes, she did not realize she was just marrying a she she did not realize at the time she was just marrying a person. She was marrying into this institution. And at first she fell in love with the military community, and then there was somewhat of a shock. Military families take care of each other, but sometimes, not always, but sometimes the institution itself has made life harder and not easier. But rather than turning away, Jennifer leaned in. She received her master's in public administration at UNC Chapel Hill. And armed with the knowledge from this education, she returned to journalism with those sharper teeth and has exposed many, many stories about food insecurity among military families, bureaucratic battles, surviving military surviving spouses, the widow tax, and many, many other stories that we'll get into today. And all of this culminated in her debut book, The Military Stories You've Been Told and the Ones You Need to Hear. So, how are you doing today, Jennifer?
SPEAKER_02:It's always weird hearing your bio. I don't know. It's I don't know that I will ever feel comfortable with it. I'm doing great though. I'm excited to talk about military families. And um, I know we've chatted a little bit offline about it, and I'm really excited to get started and here we go.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'm excited, and I really didn't even read everything in your bio. I had to kind of skim through some of this stuff, but I know how you feel. It's so weird. I've had my bio read before too, and I've had other guests tell me the same thing. It's very strange to hear someone talk about yourself while you're sitting right there. So I totally understand, but it's well deserved. You've done so much amazing work. I mean, even the beginning of your book where you talked about the day that you met with President Bush and you told him about the work of your father. I guess I think that's a good place for us to start in sort of your military journey. I know that you you married into a naval officer, but tell us a little bit about just that day. I think that's a nice, nice way to kick off this show as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, um, so the book opens with uh an interaction that I had with someone that I participated in a program with um that gave us the opportunity to have dinner with uh President uh George Um W. Bush. And we uh the program is the Stand To Veteran Leadership Project. And the reason I was there was because of my journalism and my work um, you know, telling the stories of military families. Uh, but in that moment, uh, with you know, you have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to speak to a president. It's, you know, I was so nervous. I'm I'm a writer. I'm not I'm not like a public speaker. And I, you know, I was I was listening to others because we were at the same dinner table, right? We were in this very personal moment. Um, and and there were folks who were seamlessly talking about their work that they were doing, what brought them to the table. Um, and you know, I had a personal connection to him that, you know, went back to one Tuesday morning, um, you know, many years ago now, um September 11th. My dad was in uh Tower One. Um, I believe it's called the North Tower, but I always just called it Tower One because it was just like where dad worked, right? Um and so I, you know, I had this opportunity to talk to a president, and it was really hard for me because I didn't know which story to tell. You know, as a journalist, we talk about um, we learn from so many stories to the point where, you know, sometimes I recognize people, I don't recognize their faces, but I remember like the detail of their story. I don't know if you've had that happen with a podcast.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's like you know about their personal life, but you maybe you forget their face. Right, right.
SPEAKER_01:You know, or you start to or you start to put like pieces together with different people's stories that that that form a cohesive narrative about an issue. I I'm sure you've done the same thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. And so it was really hard and challenging to kind of pick which one. Um, and and in the moment, I, you know, went with my gut, you know, and I told my father's story of how he um, you know, survived the impact of the first plane, but you know, moved down a few flights um, you know, to call make a phone call and and reach out to family. Uh, but in in the interim and the chaos of that day, we didn't know, we didn't get the phone call that he had actually left, you know, cell phones were flip phones at the time, all of those things. And um, I was, you know, in college, young, like one for I think it was my first or second year of college, and I didn't have any idea. I was went to a 9 a.m. class, had no idea what happened. And so uh eventually, obviously, he did make it out. He came back and we were just so happy that he did. Um, but it was President Bush's message and his the narratives he kind of put out in the world was that was kind of one of the first moments where I was like conscious of the role of the military in our national safety. Um, it was very personal to me because I obviously felt very vulnerable. Our family, you know, had been directly impacted by these events. And so it was a for a personal connection to a you know, a nationwide global if um event that I took that moment to talk with him about something personal. Because, you know, at the end of the day, all of the stories that we receive, they're all personal to someone. They're not just headlines, they're not just um, you know, data points. So the book really kind of digs in and tries to humanize and and personalize these narratives that we hear. Um, and it's kind of similar to that experience with President Bush, where I could have, you know, pitched my idea, but realistically, I don't know that, you know, he would have nodded his head and said, okay, that's nice. But uh making connection is all what this whole storytelling thing is about. And so that was really a choice that I made, and I was proud of it in the in the reflecting back, but it really does speak to the purpose of the book as well, um, which is to kind of bring people together and better have better understanding of lived experiences.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And this is a community that you not only studied from a journalistic standpoint, but this is a community that you lived and that you knew from your from your experience. And when you first came into this community, you were on the career track. You were gonna go and get a PhD, you had this whole other path planned, and then you know, life slaps you in the face. What is it, like Mike Tyson that says, you know, a good plan is only as good as the first punch in the face, or he says something along those lines. And I think that that's that's kind of what happened with you is that this your life takes this other turn, but then you turn into a journalist that's now covering military families. How did you get started in doing that? And what was that like for you at first?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So um, you know, kind of going back to like becoming a military spouse, I met my husband when I was working at the Smithsonian. Um, and I had wanted to pursue a PhD in art history, and I wanted to like go live in Italy and like eat pasta and drink wine. Like, who doesn't want to do that? Right. Right. Um, but I also knew that realistically that is a really competitive field too. And I had both journalism in the background. Um, that was my undergrad, and then that I was gonna write about the art history part. So it was a pivot, but it seemed like, well, you know, best laid plans, right? Like it's hard to get a job in this field. It's a very niche topic, right? So it felt like it wasn't this big compromise at the time, um, but it was something that you, you know, you think you know something. Um, you know, you you knew what you're getting into is like a phrase you obviously hear. I'm sure as a service member yourself, like I'm sure people said something like that. You you knew what you signed up for, right? Oh, totally.
SPEAKER_01:All the time people say that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, of course. And the same messages are are shared with families as well. So like you knew what you're getting yourself into. And I would say, like, I'm not suggesting that service members know more that because I think it's everyone to some spectrum has this experience where they thought that they knew. Um, for me, it was what do you mean you can't like put in for leave and know that you're gonna get it approved, right? Like, I didn't understand that about the military culture because I didn't have exposure to the military. And so it was very much like I'm a like no is not a real answer kind of person, where you know, it's not no, it's what does it take to get to yes? Kind of my brain works that way. And so it was a very hard, you know, hitting into the wall with the military, um, how you know, but eventually, you know, I came to really love it. And so uh we lived in Japan um early in our marriage, uh, made some amazing friends. You know, I was really lucky and I was able to work for MWR in their um communications team. And so I was able to like do radio work, which is crazy, and um do the captain's call. I don't know if that's something that is around still, but you know, the local television for the um AFN, you know, and I wrote for I wrote for Stars and Stripes, and I say little like clips for for AFN from MWR. So it wasn't like a show or anything. Sure. But I got to keep going um with the journalism and I wrote for Stars and Stripes, you know, doing like local restaurant things. So, you know, I had had that thread, but it took one experience with um a friend who had a pretty devastating diagnosis um to kind of like you know, hit that wall again. Um, I came to find out that families were kind of expected to come around her after and and anyone in that circumstance to support with food, with meal trains, childcare, just be there. And everyone in our environment in our community, you know, we stepped up as much as we possibly could to support that family, but we all had full-time jobs, we had children of our own, you know, it was a different environment than what maybe existed in previous generations, where maybe not both the spouse might not have worked. Um, and so that structure of support that was relied upon to be there for families, it's all volunteer. And so in our modern day, it just wasn't playing out as I know was intended. So I kind of dug on that, um, dug in on that, and I pulled on that thread. And that was kind of the first um article or theme that I really wanted to understand. And that ended up becoming chapter three of the book. Um, so it that's that's kind of how I got started. And then it's just one story um leads to another, and uh you learn more and more, you know, the more threads you pull on.
SPEAKER_01:Sure. And I think that a lot of times people don't understand that as a military spouse, especially people on in the civilian sector, I think those of us who serve understand it, but people in the military in the in the civilian sector don't understand that there's so much lost wages and lost ability to recertify. I mean, I think I just read recently that there's even problems now with all the different licensure licensing programs where they were supposed to recognize certain professions from state to state and that's not going as as well as as some may have hoped. And those are are real issues when it comes to military families, because in this day and age, two-parent working homes are are the norm a lot of times. And military families are statistically underemployed. And especially as you get into the junior ranks, that can have severe consequences, where military families face food insecurity issues. I I was exposed to that through a classmate of mine at the University of San Francisco that I go to school with, and she's really done a great job of educating us and and you know, myself and other classmates about this issue with having to have food pantries, for an example, for military families. And that was something that, you know, me as a junior enlisted single person, I just I never really gave a lot of thought to. But it's a it's a real problem with our families sometimes not getting that support that they need.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and you're exactly right. And I think that um, you know, you kind of mentioned that it's hard for people to understand. Um, you know, that kind of is some of these issues, right? Are that there are seem solutions. You referenced an article, you know, that came out recently. I believe it was from Military Times that uh talked about how DoDU put out a letter, um, you know, or the department put out a letter saying that, you know, there need this is not being followed, and we really take this seriously, this law, this provision that does exist. Um, the reason I I mean it's it's um heartening to hear that they come out and say that. Sometimes I've seen, and over the years, um, many years, a lot of times you see a lot of memos that or even policies that are intended to help a family situation, but there's not a lot in the way of follow-up um in the enforcement side because you know, to be fair, jurisdictions are limited. They don't have direct oversight over the bodies that issue um licenses, for example. They they don't. And so it's this weird, uh, we are a weird group of people who find ourselves all over the country, all over the world. But the problem is that it causes harm, you know, to our careers, to our financial security as individuals who, you know, we don't have the opportunity to vest into our, even if we do work, we don't always get our vested um return, right? Um, because we move every two to three years with our service members. Um, things have changed over the years with, you know, uh remote opportunities, things like that. But uh the DOD, and I it's such a habit. Do you know is is is uh so um tied to service members because that is their mission. We are not their mission, but if we're not considered in the calculation, the mission isn't going to be as successful. And so I think that there is um an it's an important aspect of the military community is to focus on the families. And I do think that that has has had various levels of success over the years. Um, I just there's always more and room for improvement for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, absolutely. I think one of the things that surprised me too was how much of what military spouses do on the day-to-day is unvolunteer, I mean volunteer, unpaid work, and how you might not be forced to do it, and you might not which I would love to. You did this whole history about back in the day, it was part of maybe a military member's promotion, or there was tied to uh a certain amount of uh not of requirement from the spouse. But this these this day and age, it's not required, but it is expected, especially if you are the spouse of a commander, let's say uh you're the spouse of the commanding officer, it's expected as the spouse that you're going to play some kind of a role, whether you want to or not. And then, like you said, there really aren't sometimes those support services that are available, or like you said, sometimes there'll be policies that come out that there won't be that enforcement side or that lack of follow-up. And I and that's what I think I really appreciated about your book is that you you don't just say this, you you back it up with evidence in case after case after case. I mean, you you talked about the issue with the burn pits, for example, and you know, that was more service members, but you talked about Red Hill. You talked about the cases with um, oh gosh, I think it was a military exception, a cancer uh wife, a wife who who who's uh and and and just all these kinds of cases where the the the services and the support that was supposed to be there was not there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And and I think that, you know, individually, I think we have had, I've I have, and I'm sure you have too, amazing experiences with caseworkers, with administrators who like go above and beyond in their job. But that is it's a case-by-case situation sometimes because the structure isn't always it doesn't always support them, to be honest. And the story that I think you're referencing in um in the book is the chapter that is focused on resilience. There was a a mother of two children who had unrelated cancer diagnoses who went to receive um assistance from their military treatment facility. And when she was working with the, you know, because when you have kids, two kids with cancer, you're at the hospital all the time. And so she was working with someone who was supposed to help um determine if she was eligible for a caseworker. And uh ultimately she was told no that she wasn't eligible for a caseworker. Um, and she confronts To this person who she had built a relationship with because of the frequency of visits. And you know, when someone's going through that, you know, you reach out, you bring them together. And she was a caring worker, but she's like, Why didn't I get why wasn't I qualified? And she's like, What if I came in disheveled, like lipstick on my teeth in sweats with food on my clothes, would you have said yes? Would you have given me approval to have a case manager? And she's like, To be honest with you, yes, we would have. And it was almost this idea that because she was displaying outward resiliency, that she did not need the service. And it really highlights that idea that, you know, if we can be shiny on the outside, um, then we must be fine on the inside. We must not need help because we've gotten this far on our own.
SPEAKER_01:You know. Absolutely. And I think that that's one of the real unfortunate parts that is often overlooked when it comes to the families, is they're expected to and military members as well. We're expected to just just push through, push through, push through. And oftentimes we we absolutely do need that support, and not just from the individual who's doing it, who who might not be getting support to do it, but the policies that that back that up. And I think that your courage in writing a book like this. Did you worry as you wrote it that you were questioning some of the same things that, you know, here's my husband, he works for the military, but at the same time, I want to be able to advocate for the things that I'm I'm seeing within my military family. Did you ever feel conflicted about that?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I always came at it with real stories from real people. And I contextualized those singular experiences with the available data. And so I didn't worry because I do believe that our service, uh, our services understand that they're not perfect. And I think that sometimes the the context that you know they're in, they don't always have structurally have the ability to make everything better. Sometimes they do, um, but sometimes they don't. They need congressional funding or approval to do something or to change something. Um, you know, an example in the book, you know, where um that might be the case would be molden housing, um, unsafe living conditions, where families, um, and I'm not gonna, there's many different circumstances of unsafe living conditions. And in the book, I reference Red Hill, and I think that that's slightly different, but just say that um the average uh duty station, if there's mold in housing at the before the tenant bill of rights, which is something that's available now, um, where families can go and ask uh for, you know, kind of push back against the privatized housing companies. Um, before that existed, they would go to their housing offices, they might elevate it to the base leadership. But if they the base leadership doesn't have the money to repair it, they cannot cancel these forever contracts that are in existence. They're government contracts, they can't get rid of them on their own. So they would, and they're prohibited from you know, advocating to Congress. They can consult, but they can't like go knocking on the door in that direct way. And so it's almost this reliance upon the people who are boots on the ground experiencing this hardship to elevate their own problems outside of the chain of command because it isn't structured in a way that enables and for good, many good reasons, but the negative side of that is that families have to stand up, step up and service members themselves, veterans have to stand up and say this isn't working. You know, we've seen that with veterans care um, you know, at the VA a long while back. And so people obviously, you know, probably knew that the caseload was a mess before it became a mess publicly, but you know, it's that's that's a big thesis of your book, though.
SPEAKER_01:The big thesis of your book is let's let's try to attack these problems when they first appear, let's not let them carry on. And I think your your touchstone story that I mentioned before the call of letting a problem carry on, and and this is obviously not controversial anymore, but it's the it's the story of of all the wives who didn't have any information and didn't know when their husbands were going to come home from war during the Vietnam War. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. So um I'm like I'm trying to remember the chapter numbers. Uh, one of the chapters looks at uh the book is kind of uh it intersperses some historical accounts with some modern stories that haven't, you know, their modern history. Um and one of the historical stories looks at the spouses of the POWs during Vietnam. Um they were held prisoner in the Hanwai Hilton and other you know prison camps after they were shot down. Um, and looking at specifically uh an organization called the League of Wives. It was uh founded by Sybil Stockdale, who was married to the highest ranking um officer in the Hannah Hilton, Admiral Stockdale. And, you know, it kind of came about accidentally, um, their organization and their effort. It centered around a cop, you know, a dining table in Coronado, California, um, you know, of similarly impacted family members just not knowing what to do. Uh they knew their their, some of them didn't know if their service members were alive, some did. They received letters. Um, but you know, ultimately they were not hearing much progress wasn't happening. They didn't hear from the Navy or from, you know, anyone else that something was going to be done to provide, you know, a safe return. And so they met together and they were brainstorming and they were trying to work within the system as best they could, uh, but ultimately they found out through coded messages that they passed back and forth that their spouses were being tortured. And that was not something that was public knowledge at the time. So everyone knew that you know the war was unpopular, but they it would have been even more unpopular had that come out. And so at least that was the perception at the time. And so, you know, these military spouses were really torn because they had knew things that were happening that violated the Geneva Convention, and they also saw that nothing was being done about it. And so it was, you know, kind of a crowd powder keg, right? Like they were, they were part of this, what I would call almost like a spy, they're kind of spies because they passed coded messages, they had to decide to participate, right? Because they were writing letters, and that's how they communicated with the POWs. And so their story is kind of one that's a little hidden, but um, and and now we might look at it, like I said earlier before, with like this feminist lens of like those, you know, they were doing the work and they were being, you know, advocates and they really just wanted to get their spouses home. And and they took charge and they were organized and they did all the things that we might come to see a modern uh, you know, spouse doing, but they did it out of necessity because they were just confronted with the worst case scenario of knowing their their husbands were being tortured and no one was helping them. And so they're like, okay, let's do it. You know, they went, they decided eventually when nothing was happening, they're like, we're gonna go to the media because we are not gonna sit back and let this happen. You know, when someone you love, you know they're hurting and and possibly dying across the world. You know, spouses are just yeah, we have the similar values that our our partners do. And I get a little teary thinking of it, but we care about this country, we care about the service. And so these women stepped up and they did their service and they served not only their families, but they served the country by elevating the true story of what was going on. And they really were instrumental in returning their husband safely to our country and to getting it publicized that there were violations of the Geneva Convention. And in that, when they did that, their their husbands reported getting better treatment. So there was a direct connection that the their husbands made to the efforts of this group to their treatment. And so it's an untold story that I didn't even know as a Navy spouse for many years, and I'm just so proud to have learned more about it.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And it culminated in a few years back with a dedication of a memorial in Coronado of those spouses, and it's a really beautiful dedication and statue. And I didn't know anything about this story either until I read it in your book. So I really appreciate you bringing that to the attention of so many people. And I think something that probably a lot of spouses struggle with, and obviously us in the military struggle with is when when do we take a story to the media? And and what would you advise us? What would you advise a spouse who is struggling with something, isn't getting heard through Congress, isn't getting heard through their their service members chain of command, but is worried about blowback or retaliation? What would you how would you advise them?
SPEAKER_02:So, you know, I'm probably the worst person because if if people uh, you know, I always say, let me know. But I also would not encourage I I wouldn't encourage anyone to just reach out to the national media, you know, on you know, one issue pops up, right? It's not always appropriate because it might not be the level of the solution. So what is the level of the solution to your problem? That's usually what I think of is have you attempted, did you try calling the housing office? Like, yeah, like have you exhausted the available resources and have you documented what's going on um enough to be able to show someone outside of the problem what's going on? So it that could be Congress, that could be media. Um, you need to be able to share what it is and be able to articulate that. So usually you understand the problem once you've kind of gone through the system to a level where you know you learn it a little more than you ever wanted to, right? Um, you I know way too many things about like the you know dispute resolution processes for like tenant bill of rights, and uh I know about like uh retirement with medical disability. Like I know too much about some of these administrative processes, but you kind of have to know a little bit about what's where the system broke. And that means you have to understand it a little bit. Um, so I would never encourage someone not to speak out um ever. Uh I just would encourage them to find the appropriate level of where where you should reach out um based on your circumstance.
SPEAKER_01:I agree. And I think sometimes there's just some problems that are just systemic that you have to use media or use podcasters like me, like the problems within our administrative system that you so you you so skillfully documented yourself and and did a a story uh with Krista, um a person I had on my show as well, about some of the failures within the IG system. And those are systemic issues that to this day still haven't been fixed. Or there's issues within the UCMJ that don't give people the same due process protections as the people on the in the civilian side. Those are those are, I think, systemic issues that we've got to keep talking, in my opinion, that we have to keep talking about in the media, whether that be veterans talking about it, whether that be active duty, or whether that be spouses, because those are the kinds of changes that there hasn't been a fix yet. But to your point, I do believe that much of the advocacy that has been done around burn pits, for example, that's obvious. There was legislation passed, there was more protections uh put in place due to the years and years. But then you also bring up the fact that there was a point very much early on where they could have fixed the problem before it became the problem that it that it did. Have you this which brings me to another question? Have you seen instances that aren't in the book where the military has fixed a problem or or or or solved a dispute before it had to go to a media report or you did a query and then the military was aware of the issue and said, Yeah, we're on it, we're fixing it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I think that there are a couple. One is there's an office that actually your guest, uh Jeremy Hilton, um, had formerly worked for, um, the Defense State Liaison Office. They're constantly working it, but I think it's really hard because the way that these systems work, they're very slow and we move through them quick, right? In the grand scheme of things. The fixing policy, especially at their level, where they were working with different states to change policies that impacted families, it's not a fast process, but it's like um I my my pastor says like things happen slowly and suddenly um at this you know, same time. It's like what has been building, then all of a sudden it's changed and it's better. Um, another example of a positive is um I've seen a lot of installation commanding officers holding town halls and being willing to engage with people. So when it's similar to um, you know, there's another member of the book, um, Zumwalt, who did retention study groups where he solicited feedback from people. When our leaders are asking for feedback from the community before there's a problem and while there's a problem, and they're not afraid of the questions that they're gonna be asked. That is a it's a vulnerability, but it's also a trust. It builds trust with the community. And I found that people who are participating in those things are less likely to go and complain on Facebook if they know they're gonna be heard.
SPEAKER_01:That's such a great point, Jennifer. Such a great point. I mean, I can go back to any of my workplaces where I felt comfortable going to my boss, therefore, my boss has dealt with less complaints from everyone because he was available and he was open to helping resolve problems. So I I I would agree that that's common sense as you go through your uh organization, any organization, that that that is key to solving some of these issues. How did you decide which stories to put in the book?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, it's I think the stories that like would keep me up. I think those are the ones that kind of made me because there's there's ones that I forgot. Like I I wish that I mentioned the fact that you know this is the the overarching active duty experience, but the this is something you might like over here is National Guard, and over here um is Coast Guard, and they have similar challenges, but different challenges. Um, I couldn't write about uh Coast Guard because that's a whole nother department that I am not like an expert in writing about. And so I didn't dig in deep, but I think that the stories that ended up in there were the ones that just they weren't told a lot. Um, you know, they were themes that make people uncomfortable, to be honest, but are required. But there it's the things that when you pull the thread, what's at the end of the spool? What's at the end? Some of these things are the things that I found, not the end, but at towards the end, right? It's the systems of support and how we fix problems in the community. That's the underlying issue. Like if we're not doing program evaluation, then we rely upon families to have a problem, which makes us look bad in the media, which makes service look bad. Why are we doing it this way? So it's just, you know, I care about the military enough to call out it's nonsense, right? And so that's why I how I chose some of these things is that if we want it to be better for the next generation, we have to look at our own circumstances and what we are in right now and examine how can we fix this, how can we address this? And it's that's not to simplify because it's complex, but there are some things as far as messaging is concerned that could go a long way, kind of to the point of the town halls. There's a lot of um, you know, just people will say things, but let's see the action behind them. Like we always want to see the what is, you know. I say put your money where your memo is, or you know, like let's hear about it, but let's see the action, right? So that's how I chose it, is what bothers me the most.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, what what keeps you up at night? And we do have somebody who's joining us on the call. And and uh Corinder, I had a good question that I thought I would bring because you did say something about medical and disability. So this isn't really about the families, but I know that you've done some issues about this, and I thought this was a good question. So I'll you I'll I'll say it on the show. What aspects of your military experience do you feel are misunderstood by civilians when disability is involved when it comes to the military?
SPEAKER_02:So um there are two areas that I have researched in this. Um, one, and so I can't speak to like, and I want to make sure I also understand the question. So I I'm gonna take it for what I think it means, um, which is looking at, you know, those who want to join the service who are, and also those who are currently serving. Um, I when I dug into learning more about um the reason I did that to rewind a little bit more is I wanted to understand how military children, children of actively serving uh personnel who were enrolled in their military's exceptional family member program, what would happen, because the medical records are kept, what would happen when they go to serve themselves? Because we know many military children end up serving as well. And so I wanted to understand that. And so I started doing research to understand um, you know, what who is what's a disqualifying condition? Um, what is a disqualifying condition for those who are being recruited? And and what is a disqualifying condition for people who are currently serving? Um I don't know if you've had the opportunity to talk to Greg, I think Martin is his last name, but he wrote a book called Bipolar General. Bipolar General. And so I had previously interviewed him before I started that line of inquiry, and it was clear that people serve and serve with distinction um with many diagnoses or or undiagnosed, right? So it's it was striking to me. Yeah, yeah. And so it was it was very surprising to me um as someone who did not necessarily have the knowledge yet up until that point, um, that there were differences between the uh disqualifiers for those seeking to join and those who are currently serving. Uh they're different. And that was like, I didn't understand that that was possible. I understand why it's practical, but you know, theoretically, a person who wants to who goes to a recruiting station could be turned away for the same diagnosis that a person who is serving actually has. And it it didn't seem right. And I wanted to understand a little bit more. And I don't know if that is addressing the question, but um there is a lot when it comes to disability that is not necessarily talked about often. And I dig into that a little bit in the book, specifically with uh Tori Ridgway's story, which is what started this kind of research. Um, I don't know if that answers.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think there's another aspect that uh I think that the person who asked the question was also asking, which which I I cover too on on my podcast, which is the the, you know, how did he say, how does acquiring a disability change your sense of identity as a service member or veteran? And that this kind of goes into a deeper question about how the military defines uh the word disability. What does that mean? And who gets to decide what is a disqualifying diagnosis and what isn't? And Jennifer, I can only speak from personal experience on this issue because I received a disqualifying diagnosis when I was uh 19 and and almost was med-boarded out of the military. And that's on the at least on the mental health side, I learned what what I feel and what I still believe to be a very subjective uh nature to them, at least on the mental health side, to the to some of these diagnostic criteria, where where one person can say you have an adjustment disorder and another person can say you have PTSD. And it all just sort of depends on which doctor you see. And so this isn't, you know, especially um issues of the mind and sometimes even issues in the body. Uh, this is this is a science, but it's also a doctor and it's a doctor's opinion. So I think the biggest thing that's misunderstood is that I think sometimes people think this is a hard science. And uh I just I'm here to say that I don't think or feel that it is. And if it was, then we wouldn't be having this rating schedule that's coming up. I don't know if you've been following that issue with the VA disability where they're going to change some of the ratings schedules because they want to lower, lower some of the diagnostic uh criteria uh scales. But the the the overall point is that these are just these are hard discussions and these are things that people really don't want to talk about, but these are stories that are happening every day to our veterans and are happening every day to our service members, and then the families are feeling the the the hurt of that as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I uh while most of the time I don't cover active duty uh topics, how I entered this conversation was because of a military family member wanting to join. And I think that it highlighted for me the variability in the process. Um, the each recruiter has, you know, influence over, you know, the process. And they might not, you know, I've heard right from sources that there are individuals who, you know, will tell you, nope, you're not gonna get in with that condition. And then that's enough verbally, even though it's not a documented, you know, denial. There it's a turning away because the paperwork will be so cumbersome. And then only to get denied, you know, this is what sources have shared is that it's just not worth the heavy lift for the recruiters to go through the process. Whereas in an a recruiting station that maybe it has lower numbers, some of those recruiters will refer that person to a different location. And to me, that is giving deference to the military, because you know, there is a law that civilian employers have to follow, which is um the Rehabilitation of Act of 1973, and it it talks about discrimination on the basis of disability. And there's a lot to the there's a deference paid to the military, but with the presumption that there is a repeatable process. And right, and the article, yeah, that's consistent. And and I'm not saying that it's not nuanced, right? Like we want people to serve and they want, we want them to be safe. We don't want them to put that themselves or someone else in harm's way. So there is absolutely an appropriate um they, you know, it's appropriate to look at physical and mental health, but it should be a somewhat repeatable process or at least a process that's more transparent than I had found it to be in my research. And that's kind of it's included um both, I think, a little bit in chapter eight and chapter nine, it kind of goes into some of those details, but the question is very well you know asked. It's there's a lot to this topic for sure.
SPEAKER_01:There's a there's a lot to it. And I think it's a a topic of of of much discussion and will continue to be uh we'll continue, we'll continue to wrestle with it. I I just don't think that, especially as it pertains to something that you can't easily test or something that you can't easily see, it's just going to be a hard issue that the military is going to have to do the best they can to to grapple with. But what we really need on the ground and on with our eyes and our ears is that we need to tell these stories and we need people to be willing to share them and talk about them openly. And I I really applaud you for for taking the time that you did to write the book. How long did it take you to do it?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, writing it was probably a two-year process. The research that led into it, just I'm I went from civilian, I'm not in the military, and I had to learn things that are internal to the military from scratch, essentially. So it's basically been a seven-year learning process, getting my master's in the process, um, and you know, kind of collecting my own data where there weren't any, you know, surveying spouses, you know, doing um qualitative research on specific topics like volunteerism, because some of this stuff, you know, data exists, but it's it's not usually it's not about us, right? Like so I I think of like the DOD does survey spouses, but in 2021, they surveyed us about COVID, which and our vaccination status. And I don't want to go into too much of that, but the the thing that was interesting was it came out the findings came out two years later. It wasn't really about how, like, what is a program, a problem that we could have acted on at that time. Like sure, you know, when you're not gonna get the data for years, it's like, well, why did you want that? You know, it it made that was the underlying my question. It's great. I'm glad you got information and wonderful, but it's like why? You know, we need to be asking the right questions that really get out fixing the problems that we're facing. And so sometimes um, you know, the research took a long time and sometimes it didn't exist, and and so I had to collect it myself. Um, right, but it's been a while, it's been a long process for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I think what you did was announce, like I said, an outstanding contribution to the the history of the military. There really does not exist much history regarding military families or military spouses. I thought some of the best research that you did in the book was towards the beginning when you talked about, and and you just did, I think it's kind of a cursory study of military stories in the media. And you did like a percentage, and you'll probably be able to describe it than I can, but you did a percentage of stories that were about families and about spouses versus about military members. And and I get it, like there's probably obviously we're we're the military, we're gonna do majority of our stories about the military, but I think it was something like six percent or some very low number of stories that you found that were about family issues or about the families.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it was six out of about 140 something, 147, six of them. And it was like one of them that was coded. I I basically read all military, so uh Stars and Stripes, Military.com, Military Talking. All the major trades, asking purpose, all those major and I quoted them, and one of those stories was like about a benefit related to the CDC, the child development center. So, like it wasn't about us, it was just related to a family topic. So, like it wasn't great. And another finding that was really interesting that I think that your audience would be interested in was the fact that um officers were quoted nine to one, and that was hardly representative. And I I know we've connected on this before, you know, with your previous role of like we understand why. Um, often, you know, the PAO might be an officer uh and they're speaking on behalf of, but it means that the stories that we're reading really are not coming from the mouths of the people experiencing whatever it is that we're talking about. And because of the policies that restrict speech. And that's you know, one of the first things that we ever connected on was looking at military influencers and what is okay, what is appropriate, how do you navigate the Wild West of being, you know, publicly, you know, talking about the military.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and so having a voice, you know, is it's very hard because of our limited free speech protections. And when I say the word limited, I mean subjective. I mean it it all depends on who you work for, uh how they view what you're doing on social media. It's up to commander's discretion to decide how much or how little you're you're you're allowed to post or you're allowed to have a presence. I've known influencers that were told to shut down and and investigate it, ultimately cleared. But I mean, the process, I always say the process is the punishment. So it is very difficult as an active duty member. Now it's not as difficult if they just want to do feel-good news stories or if they want to have, you know, a leadership podcast or something. That that is not, you know, because the guys that do the podcast, and it's a wonderful podcast, actually, permission to speak freely. And they still do sometimes tackle hard issues, but I don't necessarily think they're poking the bear and they're and they're they do it in and and I think there's some some some some merit to that. There's definitely a way that you can advocate as an active duty member, even, but you just have to do it very, very carefully. And you have to be aware that there are going to be people that aren't aren't going to like what you're doing and they're going to look for those holes or they're going to look for some sort of a vulnerability that you have. And you have to be very careful. And I think that sometimes even the military spouses, they have to be very careful because whatever they're advocating for could maybe reflect poorly on their husbands. And so it does make it difficult. But the thing that I am grateful for is that we we we are not told not to speak. And so, um, you know, I had an active duty presence as a as a as a serving member, I active duty uh social media presence. And so I know there are some people who can do it and do do it well, but it is very, very difficult.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And it goes back to kind of what we were talking about earlier, where if leadership is not opening up the doors and being vulnerable and soliciting feedback, and if the only way you get your feedback or hear about these maybe controversial topics is through an influencer who maybe some of them maybe have more of a plugged into the leadership knowledge than others. But if you're only hearing from them, then you're not getting necessarily the best information. So it really kind of points back to um opening, you know, communic lines of communication um and and being more transparent. I think that that's something that over the history of the military has there's been various levels of and and um you know policies that some people are more transparent, some people are not, you know, administrations change and things change, but I think that as individuals, like we have to be able to have these hard conversations with each other because if we don't, then we're just gonna like doom the people coming after us to kind of deal with the same problems again and again and again. And I know it's not always at everyone's responsibility to fix all these problems, but you know, I think it's disingenuous to not have hard conversations, right? Like we can't just talk about how much we love it and just like sweep everything under the rug. At least that's just not my personality, anyway.
SPEAKER_01:No, um, it's not mine either, obviously. What what is the biggest takeaway as we're winding down the call? What is the biggest takeaway that you want people to walk away from after reading the book? Or what would you like for them to do or or say or or how you want them to feel?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I hope that they walk away with a little bit more information of what the military spouse experience, military family experience is, but I also would encourage them um to or just like to tell their stories, to be honest, because um there's always more to the story. There's stuff that's in not in this book that maybe should be. Uh, there's probably seven more books, not by me, because it's I'm not ready for that. But there's there's just a lot. And in order for people, in order for us to kind of look at the narratives that the things that we're talking about about the military, if the military members, veterans, are not actually saying what they experienced and sharing what they experienced, then all the civilian population will know is what they're told and you know, or what they read in a headline. You know, it's very, you know, the same, or it's just not that nuanced experience. And I think that we need that nuance in our communities. You know, we don't want to just hear the same thing from the same places again and again and again because it's easy to um to kind of believe what you're told when you don't have an insight from a person that you know or a friend, or you know, it's it's just easy to kind of just take the news and say, Oh, yep, that's probably true of the military, or you know, and I just think that there's so always more to the story. So I would just encourage people to tell their story.
SPEAKER_01:Mel, I mean, stories are messy and and people are messy and the institutions are messy, and I think sometimes in our sadly, like we were talking uh um, you know, through messaging like earlier about headlines, people just see a headline and it it as polarized as it can be, they just jump to an emotional reaction and it's usually something political, and it's not the full story, it never is. And I I think that if you can try to dig a little bit further and dig beneath a story, what you'll find underneath is is just real humans struggling to get by any way they can and and and figure out life. And we're all in it together, Democrat, Republican, whatever. We're all in it together. And I think the more we can see that, I I think the the better off we'll be, regardless of what your personal beliefs are on a particular issue. So I th I thank you so much, Jennifer. Was there anything else that you wanted to say about the book or about your work uh at be at before we get off the call?
SPEAKER_02:No, I mean, I just appreciate the opportunity to share. And you know, I anytime I can get an opportunity to tell people about these stories um with you know, a population that really just doesn't get uh the platform to talk always. And um, you know, you might know if you're a service member, you might know your spouse's experience, but you know, there is a you know a bigger experience that all of us kind of have these like parallel journeys, even though we're very different, you know, every spouse is different, but there are a lot of similarities, and those similarities can sometimes um, you know, help bring us together and help us feel connected, uh, to know that my being pissed off because my husband didn't get leave is probably not unique to me. It's it's out there. And so if you're a service member listening, um maybe you share this with your partner uh that they would, you know, have you know, feel a little bit more seen in their experience. That would be my only thing to share.
SPEAKER_01:I love it. I love it. And just as a reminder, please tell the audience the name of your book and where they can find it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, um, and I actually even have it, I'll even show you. One of the military stories. Oh, yeah, there you go. The military stories you've been told and the ones you need to hear. I don't know if it's reversed in the screen, but um nope, it's not. Yeah, okay, perfect. So military stories you've been told and the ones you need to hear.
SPEAKER_01:Awesome, awesome. And that is on Amazon. You can get it there, or you can also download it like I did on your Kindle. But it's a it's a wonderful book. I highly recommend it. It's so well researched and sourced. And of course, you're a journalist, so you're a great writer, but that not naturally, not always, I guess, but you're a very, very good writer. And I I just love your book. I mean, honestly, I I think there was a few times I just I would read a story and I'd be like, oh man. Like the we didn't even talk about like the widow tax. That was another one that just really just broke my heart that people, and I don't know if that's still going on, where military spouses who get remarried uh sadly lose uh the benefits that they deserve uh for for losing their their spouse. So there are certainly a lot of stories in the book that deserve to be read and talked about. And I just thank you so much for everything that you did to bring awareness on this issue. And I will meet you backstage to say goodbye as I say goodbye to the audience. Yeah, thank you so much. Awesome. All right, guys, that is wrap. Uh next week, I believe I have two more shows, and then I'm gonna take two weeks off and uh take a little bit of a break. But I hope you enjoyed this broadcast tonight. Stay tuned. I'll have the other promos out within the next couple of days. But as I always end these calls, please take care of yourselves, please take care of each other, and enjoy the rest of your evening. Bye bye now.