S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
From the little league coach to the former addict helping those still struggling, hear from people from all walks of life how they show up as a vessel for service and drive for transformational change. Hosted by Theresa Carpenter, a 29-year active duty U.S. naval officer who found service was the path to unlocking trauma and unleashing your inner potential.
S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
Are Disability Benefits Backfiring with Army Lt. Col (ret) Daniel Gade | S.O.S. #246
A hard conversation worth having: we sit down with retired Army Lieutenant Colonel Daniel Gade to examine how the VA disability system, built with noble intent, can trap veterans in dependency and distort how America sees its warriors. Drawing on his combat wounds, hospital experience, academic work, and policy roles, Daniel makes a clear distinction between having a condition and becoming that condition—and shows how incentives, ratings, and advocacy ecosystems can push veterans toward the latter.
We trace why claimed conditions increased across generations even as sustained direct combat remained limited for most. Daniel explains the politics behind expanding the VA Schedule for Rating Disabilities and why ratings like sleep apnea at 50% undermine public trust when compared to losing an eye or a below-knee amputation. He challenges the emotional “1% served” shield, arguing that service is a voluntary civic duty already compensated with pay and benefits, not a lifetime blank check on taxpayers.
Most importantly, we focus on fixes. Daniel proposes linking mental health compensation to active treatment so care drives recovery rather than pay driving identity. He urges redefining disability to align with activities of daily living and high standards like SSDI, while shifting resources from marginal payouts to high-impact transition: SkillBridge access without command vetoes, employer pipelines, reskilling, and entrepreneurship. We discuss how work sustains identity, how Individual Unemployability can backfire, and why every dubious claim delays care for those with amputations, TBI, sexual assault trauma, and acute PTSD.
If you care about veterans’ dignity, purpose, and long-term outcomes, this conversation offers a roadmap that prioritizes treatment, transition, and true service-connected disability. Listen, share it with someone who needs to hear it, and leave a review with the reform you’d implement first.
Stories of Service presents guests’ stories and opinions in their own words, reflecting their personal experiences and perspectives. While shared respectfully and authentically, the podcast does not independently verify all statements. Views expressed are those of the guests and do not necessarily reflect the host, producers, government agencies, or
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Happy holidays, everybody. And today we are having another very important episode, this time on veterans disability benefits. I'm sure you've been seeing in the news, there's been a number of articles. I've linked to some of those links down in the description below about people's feelings on this issue. Uh, a lot of us do use VA benefits and are within the VA system. And I believe this is a subject that is near and dear to many veterans' hearts and even the people who are preparing to get out, understanding their benefits or understanding if the benefits are too generous or if there's fraud that's rampant in the system. And today to talk about that is somebody who I believe has researched this issue exhaustively. Uh, Daniel Gade, retired Army Lieutenant Colonel. How are you doing today?
SPEAKER_01:Hey, great. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. And as I always do, welcome to the Stories of Service Podcast, Ordinary People Who Do Extraordinary Work. I'm the host, Teresa Carpenter. And to get this started, we'll do an intro from my father, Charlie Pickard.
SPEAKER_00:From the moment we're born and lock eyes with our parents, we are inspiring others. By showing up as a vessel of service, we not only help others, we help ourselves. Welcome to SOS Stories of Service. Hosted by Teresa Carpenter, here from ordinary people from all walks of life who have transformed their communities by performing extraordinary work.
SPEAKER_02:And Daniel has never shied away from those hard fights. Previously, as a tank company commander in Iraq, he survived two combat wounds and the loss of his right leg. After returning home, he stepped directly into the political and policy battle shaping how America cares for its veterans, from the White House Domestic Policy Council to the VA Advisory Committee on Disability Compensation to the National Council on Disability and eventually as commissioner of the Virginia Department of Veterans Services, he's lived every layer of the system that he now critiques. And his book that we're going to talk about today, which was co-authored with journalist Daniel Huang, doesn't just stir debate, it detonated one. He argues that our America's disability system, born from noble attentions, has drifted into a structure that trapped veterans in dependency, worsens long-term outcomes, and paper covers deeper institutional failures. And the research behind this book, through years of interviews and the data that they collected and the partnership that shaped the final product are all part of the story that we explore. This is not going to be an easy conversation, but I believe it's a very important conversation because I believe that we need to understand not only all the benefits that are out there that are available, but whether or not those benefits are being used for the people who need it the most. So to kick this off, uh I'll just ask uh Mr. Gade, uh, where were you born and raised and why did you decide to join the army?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, sure. So I I was born in Minot, North Dakota, um, which is like north of the capital city. It's just south of uh of Canada. Anyway, I was born in Minot, North Dakota, and my father was an Army veteran, my mother is a patriot, and so my middle name is MacArthur after the general. And so uh when I was when it was time for me to to think about service, I uh I first enlisted in the Army Reserve when I was 17 and and still in high school. And then I went to uh basic training between my junior and senior year of high school, and I was gonna be headed off to AIT in in uh after high school graduation, but then I was accepted to West Point. So I went to West Point and I graduated from there in 1997. And so uh service, a history of service has always been part of my uh sort of part of my DNA, I would say.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. And while you served in the army, what would you say, how would you characterize your experience serving? Did you have a good career? Did you feel like the army could have done uh you did you feel like you got out of it what you put into it? I mean, other than I know we're gonna talk about the injury, but but but of course, but I I mean, like, was it was it something that you feel like uh you're you're glad you did, or are looking back on it, how would you characterize it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I loved the army. I I mean I I feel like I was in a lot of ways like sort of cut out to be a soldier and I was a good soldier. Um, I, you know, as a successful company commander, I was a successful platoon leader, and then uh, you know, at the end of my time, at the last of my company command, I was uh seriously wounded. But then really decided uh a couple of months later when I was in the hospital, I decided that I wanted to stay on active duty. And so actually from the time I was injured until uh from the time I was wounded the second time until I retired was another like uh 13 years. So I was able to stay on active duty for quite a long time and and and do some important work afterwards, including teaching at West Point, working at the White House, and you know, on and on. So I had a great career. I I stuck it out for uh I stuck it out on active duty for 20 years and then you know, some time as a cadet and some time as an enlisted soldier. So all in a touch over 25 years.
SPEAKER_02:Uh I'm curious when you did get injured, did you feel like there was a lot of pressure for you to get out and take a medical discharge and leave active duty?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, there was some at the very beginning. And and here's what I'll say is, you know, my critique of the disability system, which I know we're gonna get into uh in a in a pretty uh exhaustive way, really began actually as part of uh at the hospital. Um, because when I was first wounded, you know, I'm I'm focused on getting better and I'm focused on, you know, how do I, you know, how do how do I how do I survive this? And how do I recover and how do I provide for my family and all of that? And and there were all these people coming around saying, you know, have you thought about disability benefits yet? Are you gonna get your disability? Are you gonna get out on disability? And I'm like, well, I don't want to be disabled, so I'm not gonna do that, you know, like stop. I'm not just you know, I have a serious disability, but there's a difference between having a condition and becoming that condition. Having a disability is different than being disabled. And there were so many organizations and people and structures that were designed to get veterans like me to feel as disabled as possible so that they could get paid. And I just found it disgusting. And I found it, I found it disgusting from the beginning, and I found it disgusting today.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. Was that an opinion that was shared by anybody around you? Like, did you find other veterans that felt the same way or they felt that way, but they wouldn't admit that they felt that way because they knew that it might impact their bottom line as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, throughout this whole process, including, you know, uh including writing wounding wounding warriors and and doing tons of podcasts when it first came out in in 2021 and and things like that, like there are there are a lot of veterans out there who realize, like, wait a second, you know, my life is different. Once I once I claimed my disability, you know, my life did become different. And man, what if I'd kept working? And what if I had, what if I had, you know, come to life from a position of self-efficacy? And and so I think there's a lot of people who, you know, one of the one of the uh ladies in our book who is is one of the sort of protagonists of the book um said one time that she felt like discarded, this is a quote, discarded government waste. Right. And so, you know, when you when you think about that, the the system that is out there does a very good job of convincing people to be their sickest selves, you know, to look at their you know, fallen arches on their feet and their tinnitus and their and their sleep apnea and all this all this nonsense as as like disabling that what happens is the a lot of people lose themselves in that and they and they begin to you know introduce themselves as disabled veterans and think of themselves as disabled veterans and park in disabled parking spaces when they don't need them and on and on. And it's like, what is this doing to our society? And what it's doing to our society is over the years we've seen this um that that the societal view of veterans has shifted dramatically from you know the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s when people would would say, like, you know, veterans are honorable and veterans are hardworking and veterans are reliable. And now, now the narrative is veterans are disabled, veterans are mentally ill, veterans are broken. And that's that's our fault as veterans that we have uh allowed that to go on. And it's individual little droplets that make a that make a really uh pretty intense rainstorm that's that's destroying people's lives, frankly.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it wasn't always this way. There have been numerous attempts to try to revise or reform the VA disability system. But for one, there's a couple things that we didn't have. Number one, there wasn't the internet out there for many, many years for these previous veterans to learn, or as you say, game the system uh that we can do now. There wasn't all these what they call the claim sharks, there wasn't these businesses. So, because we when we look statistically, the the the majority of Vietnam era veterans do not claim disability. I think it's a very, very, and I would be curious at what those statistics are, but they're very small. And then as as I as I did the research into this, it's really the people like the GWAT veteran era who who are the majority of the people now who who are claiming benefits. And of course, there's arguments on the other side that say, well, those were the ones that were in the the the war. But as we both know, the majority of people who serve don't see what I would call direct combat. Or and and there's many ways to define direct combat, but they're not urban street fighting, you know, right, patrolling, but you know, going on patrols, engaging with the enemy. That's not the typical veteran. I would argue that's probably a small percentage of people that have experienced what you've experienced. Would you say that's correct?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Not only, I mean, my experience was just uh completely off the charts, um, but you know, about eight percent of people who deployed two GWAT, right, to Iraq or Afghanistan, and then a satellite of a whole big slew of other satellite countries where smaller involvement, but let's say just for the sake of argument, Iraq and Afghanistan, but like eight percent or a little less than that of those people experienced direct fire combat. Now, I'm not saying you need to get shot at to be a veteran. I'm not saying, you know, like there's a whole all the cave, all the caveats, right? But when when society thinks of you know veterans, oftentimes they're thinking of, oh yeah, I saw Blackhawk down and that's what it's like. And it's like, no, that's not really what it's like. Sometimes being a veteran means like you spent six months like washing your underpants in a sink on on a ship or something. Like it's not, it's just not you're not getting shot at, right?
SPEAKER_02:Or just yeah, working on the flight deck, 12 on, 12 off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just a grinding job, but not hard work, but not but not in danger in harm's way or not thinking. Of course, accidents happen. I mean, nobody predicted the John McCain or or those collisions, or but those could happen on a cruise ship. Those could happen anywhere. And so we have to, yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and there are a lot of jobs in society that are hard grinding jobs. You know, talk to a truck driver, right? Talk to a talk to a janitor on a or a welder, right? Like there are a lot of hard grinding jobs, but the the the nature of modern warfare, and you know, it's back to your point about uh I'm I'm gonna kind of flub this, but the I'm directionally correct, although the numbers aren't gonna be quite right. Um, the average number of of disabilities claimed by a World War II veteran is like 2.1 or 2.5, somewhere somewhere in that two range. The average number claimed by a Vietnam veteran is like five or six, and the average number claimed by a GWAT veteran is like seven, between seven and eight, seven and nine, somewhere in there. So every every sort of generation of veterans, the number gets bigger. But if you look at, you know, GWAT, other than, you know, if you were in the first battle or the second battle of Fallujah, you know, if you were in Marjan province in Afghanistan, or if you were in the Korangal Valley, you know, then you were seeing real sustained combat over time. If you were in Ramadi with me, you were seeing real sustained combat over time. But um, this idea that our generation of veterans somehow, you know, experience real combat and these other guys didn't, like, have you ever heard of World War II? Like we we lost 400,000 soldiers in World War II to you know, death, disease, accidents, and warfare. And it's like, it's like, hang on a second. To say that the Gulf War, you know, the GWAT uh uh experience is on average tougher than the Vietnam experience, that's that's absurd. It is absurd. It's absurd and it's a it's offensive to the greatest generation and to our fathers who were probably, I don't know if your dad was, but my dad is a Vietnam veteran, it's offensive to those people because that's not that's not true at all. And so where does the where so you so then the qu the obvious question is okay, where do these claims come from? And the answer is the answer is in part political. So over time, the veterans benefits scenario has become one where there are these interest groups, and the interest groups are ones that you've heard of. It's disabled American veterans, it's VFW, it's wounded warrior project, it's you know, there's a few others, right? PVA, uh paralyzed Veterans of America, Vietnam Veterans of America, all these like the the all those big organizations, right? And that what they do is they put pressure on the VA constantly, and the VA then turns to Congress and asks for more money constantly. And in as a way of spending that money, they they find what find new disabilities that they can sort of add to the VASRD, is what it's called, the VA schedule for rating disabilities. And so that's how we got silliness on there, like like sleep apnea, for example. Like sleep apnea is an important condition, and if you have it, you should definitely get treated. But it's not A, it's not a disability, and B, it's not caused by your service, it's caused by being fat and it's caused by having a skinny neck.
SPEAKER_02:Those are the things that cause sleep or breathing issues or a deviated septum or or all kinds of things.
SPEAKER_01:Sure, but sleep sleep, yeah, yeah. Sleep apnea and a deviated septum are different. Um, you know, deviated septum is when this this part in your nose is is crooked and it blocks off on your nostrils. Yeah, and it's easily fixable. If you haven't had it fixed, you should. It's totally worth it. And when I got mine fixed, I was like, oh my gosh, yes, it's a great surgery.
SPEAKER_02:Well, they call me, no, and they give put me on flonase, and then my nose started bleeding.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no, no. Get get get it surgically repaired, you'll love it. It's a great surgery, but but and you'll be able to breathe out of both both nostrils again, which is amazing. But here's the thing here's the thing is like there's a lot of conditions that veterans experience. And that and and and to be totally clear, I have some of those conditions, you probably have some of those conditions after 40 years of service, like on and on, right? There are we we all have conditions and we all should get treated for the conditions that are you know, if you're if you're self-employed, you should go to your employee, you know, you should you should go to your healthcare company. If you're retired, you should go to TriCare or the VA. If you're you know, if you're eligible for VA care, go get those things taken care of. But health care is a different thing. Healthcare is a different thing than disability. And so many things have become payout conditions that really ought to be just treatment conditions. So back to sleep apnea for a second. If you have sleep apnea, you should totally get it taken care of. You should get a CPAP machine, you should, you know, lose weight, exercise, all the things are gonna make make uh sleep apnea go away or or be a trivial thing. You know, you'll get used to the CPAP, a lot of people do. So, but that's not a disability that that rates, and and by the way, the fact that it's a 50% disability is totally, totally insane in a world where losing an eye by itself is a 30% disability and losing a leg below the knee is a 50% is a 40% disability. You're gonna tell me that that that snoring is a is a 50%. That's crazy. And so, um, and so those are some of the things that have sneaked into the system over time due to political pressure. And the truth is that the American people don't really know about this, they don't know this is happening. Um and they're getting fleeced, they're getting fleeced to the yeah, let me finish the thought. They're getting they're gonna be fleeced to the extent of like 165 billion dollars a year in just disability payments when people think like, oh, the VA is here for me and the VA is going to make things better, and they're the VA is about healthcare and and uh education and transition and employment, and really the VA is about disability and more disability and a little bit of health care. So uh, you know, so it's it's a it's the system is is fatally flawed and it really does hurt actual people.
SPEAKER_02:So I don't totally disagree with you on some of this. I think that I'm confused why we don't attack the low-hanging fruit. Because you're right, that the tinnitus or the sleep apnea, the things that are are just real obvious that there's not a or like you said, the hypertension you've talked about in the past, there's just these certain conditions that are are pretty darn obvious that they're either due to age or they're just due to the normal cycles of life. But I think the problem that comes in with this and being able to try to reform this is the fact that this isn't really up to the service member. You could guilt the service member into not doing it or shame them into not doing it and say, look, don't take this money because it's wrong and it's immoral. And like you said in uh your podcast with uh gosh, he's a Navy SEAL, he got the silver cross. Um Marcus, Marcus Matrell.
SPEAKER_01:Sorry, actually hit it. He has the he has a Navy cross, actually, and a silver star, I think.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Um, but the I just listened to it yesterday, and I thought that you made um a really great point that you can say to the service member, if you can look at the American public in the face and say, I'm taking your tax dollars because I have these service-connected disabilities, then then then okay. But if you can't do that and you feel amount of shame by doing that, then you shouldn't be collecting money for that particular condition. But the problem with that logic in my mind is that this isn't really, yes, there is there is blame. It's just like kind of blaming the welfare mom versus blaming the system that's giving her the welfare. And so what I'm saying is there's a lot of doctors out there, and especially when it comes to mental health, who can say, You have PTSD. You could have had PTSD from childhood and then it exasperated because of your because of particular uh problems or issues or incidents that happened on active duty, or you went through lawfare, which a lot of uh people that I have on my show are are dealing with is is is getting gotten to the crosshairs of the legal system. And I do believe the PTSD that comes from getting caught in the legal system and living in that kind of fear. So my my point is that how do we fix, how do we attack the low-hanging fruit? Number one, because to me that seems like a given. And then number two, how do we change the medical community and and really try to differentiate between what is something that truly happened while on active duty or was because of training or while you were in the line of duty, versus oh, oh yeah, I was I was drunk and I had this incident and and and now I'm gonna try to claim for it. Like how how do we how do we even differentiate between the two from a policy standpoint?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, that's a that's a that's a great question. So I'm I wanna I I think I'll start at the individual level and kind of build out from there. So you you perfectly described my what I call the 10 citizen test, which is if you if you can walk up to 10 citizens and go through your list of disabilities with them and a not feel embarrassed, and B, they don't reply back to you, well, hey, hang on a second, I never served and I have that too, then then probably you know, whatever you're claiming is legit. Okay. So so that's my 10 citizen test that you referred to. The second thing that where veterans do actually take some take some uh blame. And I think, you know, I I did a I did a different podcast with some some guys who are like they they make money off of coaching people how to get their disability benefits. Okay, so these are this is a hostile interview. Um, but one of them said, Well, you're trying to shame veterans. And I I sort of in that in that interview, I I I didn't do as good of a job of answering the question as I would have liked to. Um But I think that our society has in some ways lost the capacity for shame and we need to restore shame in some things. Like there are certain things that you're that people are doing that are shameful. It's shameful to uh abandon your family. It's shameful to cheat on your spouse. You know, it's shameful to uh it's it ought to be shameful to take benefits that you don't deserve, um, or that, or for things that are for things that are nonsense, even though the system says you can, you should be ashamed of doing it because it's no different than walking next door to your neighbor's house when it's unlocked and you know, rooting through the wallet on the counter and taking money out of it. It's the same thing because there's tax money is real money and it's paid by real people. And for you to take that money if you're not, if it's not legit, totally legit, um, and and legal and legit are different. But anyway, so I think shame, I think, I think being ashamed of poor behavior is something that our society uh should get back to, frankly. Um, but then from a from a policy point of view, there's a couple of things that I've re proposed. And and by the way, this uh the book Wounding Warriors, I hope you'll link it. Um it's available on Amazon, it's available on Audible. Um but the last chapter, in the last chapter, I I sort of um outlined a couple of a couple of policy changes that would make that would make this problem better. Okay, so one of them is um, especially for mental health conditions uh that are not obvious, not permanent, um, can be can be cured and and people can you know recover after them and lead a normal life again. You know, in an amputation, your leg is just not gonna grow back, your hand or your arm or your whatever, burn burns, you know, you're you can rehabilitate burns to some extent, but you're always gonna have scars, right? But something like something like PTSD, or especially things like depression and and some of that anxiety, these are treatable conditions, even in cases where somebody has experienced real trauma, you know, uh a sexual assault, a you know, a murder, a violent beating, I mean, like things like that where you've really experienced hor horrific things, even with those serious things, people can get better. And so uh one thing that the VA could do and should do, and I've talked to members of Congress about this actually, is linked treatment and compensation. So with respect to mental health conditions, if you're sick enough to get paid to be sick, if you're sick enough to get disability compensation, you ought to be required to go to mental health appointments, right? You ought to be in counseling, you ought to be, you know, on a path to on a path to getting better. And if you're not, if you don't go to those appointments, then your payments should cut off because either one of two things is true. Either one, you're better and you don't need the appointment anymore, or two, you're so sick that the VA should know about it and should reach out to you so that you don't uh you know commit suicide or or some other kind of drastic self-harm. And so either way, linking compensation and treatment would be one thing that could be done. Another thing that could be done and that ought to be done, actually, there's a a great uh study a few years ago um that that sort of looked at the definition of disability in different government programs and the V and the VA has this monsterly, you know, like hugely expanded um definition of disability where like you know, like the sleep apnea and the titus and all this stuff are are are quote unquote disabilities, erectile dysfunction or whatever.
SPEAKER_02:Knee flexation, lower back.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, but look, you know, knee knee flexation is if if your knee, and I know a guy like this who got shot through the knee and and his knee doesn't bend at all, like when you imagine sitting on an airplane seat with a with a leg that's locked out in a straight position, that's pretty hard, right? So that can be a real disability. But look, if your knees at 60 or 50 or 40 aren't gonna be the same as they were at 10, 20, or 30, hello, like we live in a world with gravity and and it's just not uh how it's gonna be. So anyway, so the VA has this hugely expanded definition of disability, but other federal programs have a much more constrained um definition of disability. So for example, the SS, the SSDI program, the Social Security Disability Insurance Program, has a very, it's a very high bar to get paid. Um, and it should be. Um, the Institute of Medicine has a definition of disability that has to do with functional limitations or limitations to what are called activities of daily limit living, ADLs. And there are a lot of things in the VA system that are called disabilities for political reasons that do not actually constitute a limitation on activities of daily living living. You can eat, you can toilet, you can move around the house, you can bathe yourself, you can communicate. These are all activities of daily living. And there's a whole lot of things that the VA calls disabilities that don't actually impede um uh activities of daily living. And so changing the definition of disability would be enormous. And then one last thing, and I know you're you probably have uh other things you want to talk about, but um another thing that could be easily be done is uh you know use some of that money that is otherwise wasted in in cash payments to people who are who are uh no different in a lot of ways than welfare recipients. You could use that same amount of money to do successful transition, right? Like you and I both went through uh uh transition assistance program TAP and most veterans do, and it's been it's been the law for the last about 10 years. But it's garbage, it's not any good. It doesn't help people, it doesn't help people get a good job, it doesn't help people link up with an employer that could use their skills, it doesn't help people become an employer. You know, there's a bunch of things that the TAP program could be doing that it's not, and that that's in part a resource constraint. And so uh fixing the resource constraint by reallocating money from paying people to be sick to doing things that help them live an improved life, I think uh is morally sustainable, it's fiscally sustainable, and I think it would make sense to not only veterans, but also, you know, regular old civilians who are the ones paying the tab for all this.
SPEAKER_02:So I think that one of the things that I've also often thought about too, though, with the idea of a payment is that one of your arguments that you bring up in the book and in previous podcasts is that, you know, as most, you know, men, but women too, uh, people feel want to feel good. They want to feel like they have a purpose, they want to feel like they are doing something meaningful. But let's just say, I mean, because even if you're at 100% disability, 35, 40 grand, what whatever the the total is, that especially if you have a family, that's that's not a living wage. That's not enough to unless you live in a super low cost of living area, and you're somehow so so my point being is that sometimes people may look at the disability system as these are the 1% of people that actually raise their right hand and say, I'm willing if if if it comes to it to die for my country, no matter what branch, that they could come into some kind of risk of combat. Probably not if they're not infantry or special forces or anything like that. But they they they they know that that comes with the territory and the constant moves and just having really no autonomy over your life, having no rights, having no due process. I mean, that was a whole education process for me as I got to about the 03 to the 05 level. I I realize how how little rights we have as service members. So you give up all these things and you sacrifice. There's going to be people that are going to come back and say one of two things. Number one, it's not enough to live off of. And most of the people who are collecting VA disability are still working. They're still going into government jobs. And some of those people now have enough money to become an entrepreneur, or they have enough money with this extra VA disability to do more things to make an impact, or they can give back in a civic way, or they can run for Congress, they can fundraise and they can raise money, they can do things that they'd never be able to do if they didn't have that disability buddy. So that's number one. The number two argument is the one that I just said, which is VA disability in the eyes of the VA, in the eyes of the government, the price that we pay people who have agreed to do this. And if you don't think that is the case, that that's a price they shouldn't pay, then I think the part that I struggle with in really getting on board with your argument is I look at all the other ways we waste money. I just read this entire book from Assad um call Lieutenant Colonel Genghis Khan. And it's all about the lead up uh into Afghanistan. And it was just, and I believe, I do believe his book, it was very well cited, very well researched. I find him to be very credible. He's a YouTuber, I'm gonna have him on my show next month. And the amount of money that we paid Afghanistan to and these tribal leaders and and warlords and other people to never ever have any peace in that area. It was just, and I you say the same thing about Iraq too. So for us veterans to to feel this like level of guilt about having some disability once we're out. Do you think that's do you think that's a hard sell to to the veteran community?
SPEAKER_01:Well, yes, and and you have a lot of questions embedded in there. So let me uh let me let me let me try to uh sort of unpack some of them. So so the first one is this this sort of like we raised our right hand, whatever. Um, first off, I hate that argument. It's it relies on emotion and not on um uh not on anything more solid, it's just an emotional argument. It's and it's designed, it's just that argument is designed to say to people who couldn't or didn't serve for whatever reason, because maybe they were raising their family, maybe they're running a business, maybe they were running a business that was so successful that it was the one paying for all the hellfire missiles that we shoot at people. Like, like, hello. I mean, like I always when people are like, when people say to me, Oh, you know, I never served, I wish I had, whatever, I say, Yeah, but you've provided for your family, that's service. You've worked diligently as a school teacher for decades, that's service. Sure. Like just because you didn't serve in the military doesn't mean you didn't serve. You were serving your family. So so I I think the argument of oh, the 1% and all this stuff, I think that's an argument that's designed to say to the civilian, shut up. Yeah, you can get criticized, you don't get to criticize your own. You don't you don't get a voice, and that that is exactly 100% wrong. It's immoral to do that to people, and it's and it's and it's based on emotion and falsehood. I don't like it. Um, secondly, you know, it it we weren't none of us were drafted, right? Um being in the military or serving in the military is a privilege and it is an obligation of citizenship. Some people have to do it. And and by doing that thing that is required for some people as an obligation of citizenship doesn't somehow make us morally superior or better to better than the people who didn't serve. It just makes us people who served and didn't and those other people, people who didn't serve in the military. So, you know, so that argument doesn't and and then the last the last piece of it, actually, I have two more things to say about that because I'm you got me fired up, Teresa.
SPEAKER_02:So Well, I told you it's gonna be a spicy conversation.
SPEAKER_01:No, I love it, I love it. So the the other the other piece here is, you know, I wasn't serving for free, I was getting a paycheck. And actually, you know, uh maybe as a lieutenant, I wish I'd gotten paid a little more. I was I was uh as I would actually donate plasma um to make a little cash on.
SPEAKER_02:I did when I was enlisted as well.
SPEAKER_01:It's so funny. I was a second lieutenant donating plasma is so crazy. I'm like a I'm a West Point graduate and I'm donating plasma to pay my bills. But I had a long distance relationship, uh, which has since turned into a marriage of 27 years and and so it was all worth it. But anyway, so you know, like I didn't get paid that much as a lieutenant, I didn't get paid that much as a private, uh, I got paid pretty well as a lieutenant colonel and as a major and all that stuff. And so it's like, you know, none of us were, we weren't, we weren't indentured servants, we weren't slaves. We were we were paid employees who were voluntarily staying in. So cry me a river about oh, you know, anyway. So I that that that part I don't love. And then the last thing, and I actually uh typically when I'm when I'm sending out one of these books to to people again, wounding warriors, it's on Amazon. Um, I want you to read it. I don't get any money off of it. I get like 25 cents if we sell a book. Um, I get like a dollar if we if somebody buys an audible book.
SPEAKER_02:And the book is not getting incredibly good. It's it's a real mix of research and then vignettes of actual service members going through. Yeah, it was it was a really good book, Daniel.
SPEAKER_01:I did the uh I I read the audiobook for the I did the audible myself, and as I'm reading it, it'd been a little while since we finished it. I'm like, dang, this book is really good. Um uh anyway, so so what I always write in the cover, or what I often write in the cover when I'm dedicating it to somebody, I say, I just say ask not. And that's obviously a reference to JFK and ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. And so there's something, there's some kind of broken switch in a lot of veterans' heads where they're so eager to, oh, I I'm a one percenter, I serve my country and I sacrificed and I wrote a blank check and all this stuff. And then the moment they get out, they fill out the blank check to themselves on from their neighbor, and they don't find anything immoral about that. And I'm like, hey, wake up, man. You're you're doing the wrong thing. And so, you know, that argument doesn't uh obviously doesn't land very well with me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I think there was a second point that I brought up. I I can't remember it off of the top of my head, but I I there was a second um issue. Oh, oh, the the actual wal waste, fraud, and abuse that we know is rampant throughout the military.
SPEAKER_01:And there's people, yeah, and not just we all know there is I mean well it I mean uh in government it's today is uh December 23rd, 2025, just for reference, if anybody's ever watching this later, and the news about the rampant, crazy amounts of Medicare Medicare fraud in Minnesota, the number looks like it's like eight billion dollars over the last couple of years in Minnesota alone. And Minnesota's a small state, you know, it's a it's kind of a medium-sized population state, and that's one state, and we're talking about eight billion dollars. So if you multiply eight billion times 50 states, you're talking about 400 million dollars, which is more than enough to fund the VA at at its current record level. So so yeah, there's there's enormous fraud outside the military in our government systems. There, you know, the war in Iraq, I always I always tell people, and you know, I actually had a chance to tell uh uh oh shoot, it wasn't Paul Wolfowitz. No, well, I think it was Paul Wolfowitz. Um and I was describing to him how I thought it was the who is then the uh deputy defense secretary, I think. Anyway, and I was describing to him how the war in Iraq was clearly the most wasteful, you know, immoral use of American power that that had occurred up to that point. At the time I didn't know it. I was happy to go serve, but or you know, go fight in combat. But I didn't I didn't realize until much later how utterly immoral and based on lie all of that was. Afghanistan less so, but tons of fraud, waste, and abuse. So my point isn't that there's not other places to that the government is wasting money. I mean, Doge, you know, for all its flaws, Doge showed tons of waste, fraud, and abuse. My point is that in this way, that there's something different about this because this is fraud, waste, and abuse. Like the Medicare fraud in Minnesota was hidden, you know, hidden behind layer after layer after layer of of obfuscation. But this fraud, this abuse is hidden out in public and people are just holding up yes, and people are just wrapping themselves in the American flag and saying, well, I served, I should get, I should get paid$2,000 a month for the rest of my life for my sleep apnea. And uh you didn't write a blank, and then stop, stop. Nobody wrote a blank check to the government. You were getting paid every month, you were doing your job that you volunteered to do, cram me a river is is my you know.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I I definitely see your point in in you in having only medical care, vice, payments, and then using the payments selectively for the people that truly, like you say, have missing a limb, or it's in it it's an exact direct correlation between uh in the line of duty, I mean on the job, nine to five, yes, like training accident, and then it does have to be all the service, right?
SPEAKER_01:Associated with service, not exacerbated by service, not a secondary service, caused by service, not a secondary condition. Oh, I I actually there's there's this one um uh YouTube video. It's it's so amazing. Like when you start, when you go down into this like you know, claim shark YouTube world, um, there's a YouTube video I saw from I think it's uh the it's a law firm Hill and something, and they're describing how if you hurt your knee, even if you sprain your knee when you're in service, that they can get a whole bunch of other things added to that claim. Because if you sprain your knee, probably you're gonna get you probably won't be able to exercise, and so you're gonna get kind of fat. And if you get fat, then you're gonna have sleep apnea and you're gonna have, you know, maybe hypertension, and you know, maybe your hypertension causes you to have ED. And so you get um, so you know, maybe your marriage falls apart because you have uh erectile dysfunction and and so and maybe you're depressed because now your marriage fall fall fell apart. And they're literally saying, we can tie all this back to your sprained knee in 1983, and they'll do it for you for the you know, for whatever, whatever for whatever price they're causing. And it's like the whole thing is rotten to the core and immoral.
SPEAKER_02:So I have to ask this, uh, because oh my gosh, I feel like we could talk for three hours on this, but uh, what made you decide to take on such an unpopular argument? Because what I also found interesting during your podcast with I think it was Marcus Lutrell. Was that his name? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, I've done I was on Andy Stumpf too. Um, the Clear Pot podcast with Andy Stumpf is a really good one. He's also a seal. I don't know if they know each other. I'm sure, I'm sure they do. Yep, I know who Andy is. It's a it's a really, really good one. And it he his questions were a little better, and he had actually read the book. Marcus had not read the book, okay, and so he didn't really know what to ask. And so I I don't I don't steer people, I haven't even actually watched the Littral podcast because he he just wasn't he wasn't prepared. Well, and so my my best arguments didn't come out.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Well, I I wasn't even going to criticize what what you said, I was going to actually critique what he did and his line, which was, Well, I I don't want to take this on because if I take this on, then I'm gonna then I gotta take care of all my brothers. And I just thought, wow, like that's such a yeah, oh yeah, you're a navy SEAL. Like I was just disappointed. Like, I'm no, no, no ill will towards him and no, I don't want to throw shade on a on a fellow podcaster, but it really disappointed me that that that was his his approach towards the issue was well, uh I I don't want to get into this subject because it's too controversial. So then I want to say to you, um, Daniel, what I mean, and aside from the fact that you got your you're personally uh uh you're personally impacted by this with losing a limb, because there's many, many other veterans who've lost a limb who who are not who didn't write wounding warriors, who didn't go go to Congress and I'm not Congress, but to go work for the Veterans Commission and do all these other this advocacy like work in this arena. And so that's what I want to know is what made you decide to take on something that was so so hard to take on and so controversial?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, the trite silly answer is that I have a hard head and I'm stubborn and you know, and I I don't mind scrapping. And all that stuff. But that's that's trite and silly. The real reason is because I think that it's I I believe that system is causing real people actual harm. And here's what I mean. Um, you know, if uh let's say a 25-year-old, you know, former Marine, you know, infantrymen or something, and if he goes on disability, especially there's this program called the individual unemployability, where if the veteran takes it's basically an increased payment in exchange for not working. And so if the veteran is on IU, they are not able to work legally, you know, they can sell moonlight and whatever, but they can't earn very much money or else a portion of their payment reverts. And I could describe it all in technical terms, but I'll just leave it. I'll suffice it to say that in this case, the story I'm the story I'm painting for you is a 25-year-old guy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, if he goes to work, he loses the money.
SPEAKER_01:If he if he goes to work, he loses the money. And so what's he gonna do? He's gonna live off, let's say he lives in rural Kentucky, and$4,000 a month, especially because it's tax-free, um, you know, that's more like$6,000 a month, and there's a whole lot of people making$72,000 a year, and that's you know, that's reasonable money. It's not it's not the top of the heap. You're not a one percenter, but you're also not starving to death. You can pay your rent, you can have a little truck, you're like your life can be okay on that amount of money, right? Actually, that's about the average that the the average American family makes about$75,000 a year. So here's the problem. The problem is that if that guy can't work, he's losing that sense of identity that we sort of touched on super briefly a little while a while ago. And men really, men's identity is very closely tied to their work. And so if they're stripped of that work-based identity or that work-based identity support, I will say, then they can quickly spiral into all kinds of bad behaviors, including drugs, including alcohol, and finally, you know, including feeling so worthless that they uh commit suicide or other kinds of drastic self-harm. And so ultimately, I lay that at the feet of a poorly designed disability system that is really doing actual harm to people. And so for me to, for me to have known that and to have observed it and then to say nothing felt uh feels immoral to me. And so I'm, you know, so I'm engaged in it. And and honestly, you know, I I was I actually spent some time with the House Veterans Affairs Committee uh staff through three, four days ago, something like that. And you know, they're talking about all these reforms and they've got some good reforms in mind and all this stuff. And I'm just sort of sitting there like, you know, we've known since the 1950s that this system was broken and that it was harming people. And and General Omar freaking Bradley had had a wonderful report, and most people haven't read it, it's amazing. You can just Google it, it's called the Bradley Commission report in 1956, and that's where I got that phrase about service as an obligation of citizenship. That's that's a Omar Bradley quote. Um, but he was describing it how how broken the system was and how it was causing veterans to behave in uh uh in in immoral ways and and uh a drain on the taxpayer and all that stuff. But that was the 1956 was like 75 years ago, or 70 years ago, like and nothing has changed. As a matter of fact, it's only gotten worse. And so, do I think that any of this is gonna change anything? No, you know, I I get death threats, I you know, people tell me I'm an idiot, people tell me that I'm a blue falcon, whatever, you know, kick rocks, I don't care. The internet's not a real place anyway. Call me names, call me names on YouTube. I literally don't care. Um, but I what I am doing is is uh I believe that history is gonna validate what I'm saying, that what I'm saying is true and correct, and that uh if people are out there listening, that they can help veterans have better lives, and that's all I care about. You know, I care about my brothers and sisters in arms, and I what I what I don't care about is a bunch of grifters, and there's a ton of grifters out there.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I can tell you that I think we're gonna run our country into the ground one day because of all the rampant fraud and abuse and wasted money, like serving at NATO and seeing what we get as veterans, or what we get in retirement, or what we get in education benefits compared to any other nation. And mind you, these are first world nations. These are first world nations, yeah. Uh Poland, any of these nations, name them. You compare what the they give their veterans compared to what we give the United States, and I think people people have no idea. And I, well, I'm grateful for for the benefits that that I receive, like using my GI Bill and other things. I'm also very pragmatic, and I realize that what we're doing as a nation is not sustainable by any means.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's right. And the I mean, obviously, yeah, I mean, we're like$38 trillion in debt and blah, blah, blah. And and all of that's true. Um but in the veteran space specifically, the thing that I just want to point out is that, you know, let's say, let's say that some percent, let's say half, just for fun. I think the number's actually quite a bit higher than that, but let's say half of people who are filing for, let's say, post-traumatic stress disorder, uh are seeking they they seek treatment so that they can get disability. And there's tons of examples of that in my book. And let's so let's just say it's some percent, right? 50. The problem is that that those resources that the VA, the counselors and the you know, mental health physicians and all that stuff, are um it's a finite resource. And so every time one of those people who's just doing it for the money uh goes to one of these appointments, a real person who was raped on a ship or saw their buddy blown apart in front of them, or or or or or and has a real uh a real problem, their appointment is delayed freaking four months because some guy is is is grifting. And so what's happening is the real suffering veterans, the real people, like I know a guy, I know a guy with a brain injury, a serious brain injury, and a shoulder level amputation. And I think something's wrong with one of his legs, too. But anyway, the the guy's life will never be the same. I mean, he's not in a wheelchair. I know some guys like that too, but he's in bad, bad shape. And his disability payment is the same as you know, the the guy. I I know a president of a university who is a retired general officer who is physically and mentally and emotionally fine, but he's got 100% disability. It's like, hey, what are we doing right now? This is crazy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So no, I think I think your argument is sound. I mean, that's that was that was the the part part that I struggled with after I read the book. I mean, there wasn't anything I could question as I read it. It's it's just that unfortunately, veterans have been conditioned to believe that they deserve it. And I will tell you, I had um, and I don't want to name drop, but I think he's a wonderful guy. But I had Paul Lawrence on my show before he became he went back to the VA and now he's working in the VA.
SPEAKER_01:He's a deputy deputy secretary. Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_02:He's a he's a great guy, but his entire I mean, he even wrote a book, Veterans Benefits for You. The the the VA themselves are are pushing two veterans to to claim and to get everything that they can that's legal, even if it is immoral, they're claiming they're they're they're pushing for everyone to get what's legal, and so there really isn't this differential.
SPEAKER_01:Of course they are, and and there's and yeah, just like the Department of War wants more war, the Department of Veterans Affairs wants to give out more benefits. Why? Because if they're if their spending levels go higher, then Paul Lawrence and you know Cheryl Mason and all of them, all of them, yeah, they're all fine. I know all these people, right? In previous administrations, I knew those people. Um, you know, previous administrations, I know those people. So this isn't me. This isn't personal. No, it's absolutely not personal, but but every organization seeks to defend itself from threats, increase its power, and reproduce. I mean, everything from a single cell bacteria, that's what they do, to the disabled American veterans. Like, if you're the disabled American veterans, what do you want to secure your power base? Hmm, I know more disabled American veterans. And the way to the way to have more disabled veterans is either to have more wars, or which they can't control, or an increased definition of disability, which they can and do control. And so they expand the scope, they tell everybody they're sick, those people go to the DAV, they come to the VA, and then the VA can go to Congress and say, we need more money because you know, look at all these disabled veterans. And it's just gross. The whole thing is disgusting.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, I I I really can't disagree with you. I mean, I I thought that I was going to, and it's something that we need to be talking about. We need to be having those discussions with the with the VA. And we need to at least start with taking away some of the low-hanging fruit. And and yeah, yeah, yeah. And that that to me is the incremental first step to reforming this system. And I can tell you, I'll I'll keep talking about it. I'm not going to be like some of these other podcasters and steer away from these hard conversations because I think they need to be had. And I'm not afraid of them. And I'm not afraid of death threats. I'm not afraid of lawsuits. I will represent myself pro se if I ever get into a lawsuit and I will defend myself and I will fight because I believe that when we have hard conversations, we solve problems. And today was a perfect example of that. And we're at the top of the hour. So perfect.
SPEAKER_00:Perfect. We do.
SPEAKER_02:As we get to close out the call, this was a great conversation. Is there anything else that I didn't ask you that you want to add?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think I think just to kind of recap, I just think that if we pay veterans to be sick, then we're going to get more sick veterans. And sick veterans are uh are are harming themselves at record rates. You know, we're the suicide, the suicide problem is not getting better. It's getting worse. Um, as organizations like America's Warrior Partnership has shown with data, the suicide problem is getting worse. And at least in part, we can blame this on a system which is designed to make veterans as sick as possible and as many veterans to see themselves as sick as possible. And my goal is not to cut veterans' benefits. That's not what this is about at all. My goal, as a matter of fact, is to help veterans live full and fruitful and productive lives for themselves and their families and their communities and their nation, just like they were in service.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And so, you know, and so when people, you know, I one of the things I get is like, well, you got yours, and you know, I want to get mine too. And it's like, no, when I got out, the only things I filed for were things that were caused by an enemy explosion. Like I filed for those things and I and I I could pass my 10 citizen tests doing that. And so, um, you know, so I encourage veterans to apply for things that were caused by your service if you if you want, and if they're legit, go for it. Um, but really what we ought to be doing is is working on reskill, upskill, and transition rather than paying people to be sick, which is what the current system does. So I I really appreciate your willingness to engage on this. I know it's it's been kind of tough with my work and stuff to for us to land this, but thank you for your for your time today.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, absolutely. And and also I do want to say that that is also the solution is to redivert some of these programs into education, into training, which we which by the way, we already have a very generous education program. 36 months of GI Bill benefits, plus for some people, VRE on top of that. It it it it it's already this very good program. But from the TAPS standpoint, I believe that we could make Skillbridge mandatory, not man mandatory for the people who want it.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, mandatory would be great.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, mandatory for the people who want it.
SPEAKER_01:That that to me is yeah, make it so commanders couldn't say no.
SPEAKER_02:Couldn't say no. Yeah, I mean that that to me is brilliant. That's a low-hanging fruit. So we had a lot of people who joined today. I want to thank the people who did. We had the folks uh from Tracer Burnout. They they basically are saying, yeah, it's it's the price of people who feel guilty from the way we treated Vietnam vets. But again, that's a that's a bad argument. Just because we feel guilty is not the way uh we ought to um we ought to we we we ought to compensate our veterans just by guilt. And then the straw man argument, you you really deconstructed that, which was the the idea that people who uh who who feel like there's waste in other ways, uh that doesn't justify the fact that they're the ones also now waste benefiting from the waste from their system. Just you know, you're you're pointing to another uh problem in order to take the attention off the problem that we're trying to solve here. So I really appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01:And Teresa, if you happen to, and I'd I'd love to do this, if you happen to get enough comments or whatever that you want to have me back on and allow people to submit questions be via super chat function. Sure. And then and then donate, like they donate whatever, three dollars, five dollars or something. And then as long as that money is going to Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors or Americans Warrior Partnership or one of these other good veteran serving nonprofits, I'd I'd be happy to come on and answer questions or you know, have people tell me I'm a piece of crap or whatever. That's that's that's totally cool with me. We did it with uh I listened to it.
SPEAKER_02:Civ div, yeah. Clayton's divided.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was Civ Div. And I think we raised, I think we raised like that. That was the one where the guy said, you know, are you trying to shame veterans? Um I remember. And I I think we raised like five grand for for tragedy assistance program for survivors, which I think a lot of that program. So so uh if you want to do that, if it if this if your audience wants to do that, I'd be happy to do it.
SPEAKER_02:Well, thank you. Uh I I unfortunately don't have the same kind of following that Civ Div has in the hundreds of thousands of hands, but maybe one day I will. I I'll I'll keep on taking these hard shows though. And so sometimes I think that that makes my my follower count go down a little bit, but I'm okay with that because I I believe in having these these tough conversations and they're really, really important. And I'm not gonna stop talking about this. So if there's others that want to chime in and want to share their personal experiences about it, I I'd love to have those conversations, even with people from the VA from wherever, because this is important or the VFW. I would I would love to have uh the the legislative gentleman who testified with you at the VA uh at the Senate, by the way. He was amazing. Uh, I feel I think his first name's Paul. I can't remember off the top of my head. Ryan, Ryan Gallucci. I would love to have Ryan. He's a he's an incredible speaker, a good storyteller, and I'd love to hear his perspective on this issue as well. So thank you so much, Daniel. I really appreciate it. I'll meet you backstage to say goodbye as I go full screen and close this out with my audience.
SPEAKER_01:Great, perfect.
SPEAKER_02:All right, guys, thank you so much. I have one more podcast today. So I doubled up and I've got one later on tonight. And like I said, I don't shy away from hard conversations because tonight we're gonna talk to a gentleman who was convicted of a sex crime, and he has since been exonerated and uh won his case on appeal. And we're gonna get into it. I've already had some naysayers in the comments on LinkedIn already doubting the story. So I really appreciate that and want to have these open conversations and let the audience decide for themselves. But the ultimate issue and aim with those shows is to show the flaws in due process within the military justice system, which I believe we all know is a problem. So with that, uh take care of yourselves, take care of each other, enjoy the rest of your day. Maybe I'll see you later on tonight. Bye bye now.