S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
From the little league coach to the former addict helping those still struggling, hear from people from all walks of life how they show up as a vessel for service and drive for transformational change. Hosted by Theresa Carpenter, a 29-year active duty U.S. naval officer who found service was the path to unlocking trauma and unleashing your inner potential.
S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
Wrongfully Convicted | Former Navy SEAL Keith Barry - S.O.S. #225
When a nation asks its warriors to defend freedom and uphold justice abroad, shouldn't those same warriors expect justice at home? This powerful episode unravels the harrowing journey of Keith Barry, a decorated Navy SEAL whose 25-year military career crumbled under the weight of a false accusation and a system corrupted by political pressure.
Keith opens up about his transition from elite special operator to facing unimaginable accusations without evidence. His conviction—secured without NCIS testimony and based solely on an accuser's statements—exposes critical flaws in our military justice system. The raw emotion of his 30-month confinement, where he refused to falsely admit guilt even when threatened with solitary confinement, reveals both the personal cost and the remarkable resilience of someone fighting for truth.
What makes this story truly extraordinary is the unprecedented intervention that saved him. A whistleblower's courage combined with a retired admiral's confession of yielding to unlawful command influence ultimately led to Keith's exoneration. Yet even after the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces overturned his conviction and dismissed the case with prejudice in 2018, the Navy has failed to fully honor the court's order to restore his rights and privileges.
Joining Keith are two remarkable witnesses to his ordeal: Jennifer Ballard, former commanding officer of the Naval Consolidated Brig where Keith was confined, and Rodney Johnson, who worked with prisoners during Keith's incarceration. Their perspectives offer a rare inside look at how those within the system recognized the injustice unfolding before them.
This isn't just one man's fight for justice—it's a window into how our military handles due process when political agendas and command pressure collide with constitutional rights. Whether you're active military, a veteran, or a citizen concerned about justice, this conversation challenges us to examine how we protect both victims of sexual assault and the falsely accused while preserving the integrity of the system designed to serve them both.
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Welcome everybody to a very special episode of the Stories of Service podcast. You'll see with me today I have three guests, because I do have Keith Berry. As you know, I put out the promo that we'll be talking about a very sensitive subject today. So for those of you who are with your small children, and there are certain subjects that you would rather not have broadcast, I do ask that this is a conversation that you have at your own discretion, but it is something that needs to be discussed, especially within the military community, and so we will be talking about subjects such as sexual assault, military justice and other issues. So, keith Berry, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm great. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Awesome, awesome. And I'm also going to talk a little bit about Jen and Rodney, who you see on the screen. But before we do all that, I'll go back to me on full screen. Welcome to the Stories of Service podcast Ordinary People who Do Extraordinary Work. I'm the host of Stories of Service podcast, teresa Carpenter, and as we always do, we start these shows off with an intro from my father, charlie Pickard. My husband's doing some adjustments right now with the sound, but hold on just one minute. I will show the intro with my dad, who was so kind. Our first podcast together.
Speaker 3:From the moment we're born and lock eyes with our parents. We are inspiring others by showing up as a vessel of service. We not only help others, we help ourselves. Welcome to sos stories of service hosted by teresa carpenter. Hear from ordinary people from all walks of life who have transformed their communities by performing extraordinary work, and by performing extraordinary work.
Speaker 1:And, as I said, to get us started here, I'm going to read a little bit about our guest today in this episode of Stories of Service. I sit down, I'm sitting down with retired US Navy Senior Chief Special Operator Keith Berry, whose 25-year career and reputation were nearly destroyed by a wrongful conviction that exposed the deepest.
Speaker 1:Today he's going to open up about his extraordinary journey were nearly destroyed by a wrongful conviction that exposed the deepest of the military system. Today, he's going to open up about his extraordinary journey from decorated Navy SEAL with multiple combat deployments to being falsely accused in 2013 and wrongfully convicted a year later under the weight of unlawful command influence and political pressure. He will share the brutal reality of a two and a half years in confinement, the torture he endured and the lasting stigma of a dishonorable discharge and mandatory sex offender registration, all while never wavering in his insistence on the truth. In 2018, the US Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces overturned his conviction, citing prosecutorial misconduct, and dismissed the case with prejudice. While his rank was restored, the Navy has yet to honor the court's full order to reinstate his rights, pays and privileges, and that is because of an affidavit that I have right here that I will be talking about, which cleared him of this crime. Now he is channeling his experience of advocacy, fighting to shine a light on the most corrosive effects of unlawful command influence, political agendas and systemic failings within the uniform code of military justice. Also joining us today is Rodney Johnson, who is happily married after 23 years, 11 months and 29 days of proud military service. He has served at Naval Mobile. Can somebody on the other calls please mute? I'm hearing a little bit of background noise, but I will go ahead and mute both you guys on that. Here we go. I'm seeing some. Here we go. Maybe it's on Jen's end. All right, in retirement, rodney stays active and volunteering as a baseball coach and over the past two years, has devoted time twice a week to mentoring and counseling at a local youth detention center, offering haircuts and providing a broader perspective on life than many of the youths he had previously experienced career surface warfare in the United States Navy. She has served as commanding officer of the mine countermeasure ship USS Dexterous and USS Warrior, where she led her crew in Gulf region operations, including joint work with the Iraqi Navy and Qasar. Her last tour was as the executive officer of USS Anchorage. Following Anchorage, she transformed to the naval consolidated brig Merrimar as the executive officer and subsequently fleeted up to the commanding officer. She retired from the Navy in January 2019 after 24 years.
Speaker 1:So we're going to add everybody to the stage and I want to welcome all of you to the Stories of Service podcast. All right, so to get us started, I will start here. I'm going to go ahead and unmute everybody because we had some background noise a little bit earlier, but I think that has now been fixed. Oh, has not been fixed, no big deal. I will go ahead and mute those people who have the background noise. Let's go ahead and get started with you, keith. Tell me a little bit about where you were born and where it is, and I've got some background noise going on, not sure where that's coming from. Hold on just one second. I'm going to see where that background noise might be coming from. Sorry about that, keith. Can you hear me? Okay, I don't have sound from you, keith.
Speaker 2:Keith, can you hear me.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. All right, let's start with you, keith. Where were you born and raised, and tell me a little bit about why you decided to join the Navy.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you. First of all, teresa, thank you so much, and to your partner there working in the background. There's always something right, right, you guys are fantastic. Let's just things happen, let's take a breath. And I also want to thank immensely Jen and Rodney for joining us today to help tell this story.
Speaker 2:One of the greatest gifts I've gotten from this experience was realizing that even in the darkest of times, if you're attentive to it, you get to see, you get to witness actual beauty, and these two beautiful human beings saw me at my worst and yet they're here today. They treated me like a human being and today we're friends which, if we hadn't met in that circumstance, I don't know where our paths would have crossed otherwise, so I'm very grateful for that. To answer your question, I'm originally from. I was born and raised in Connecticut to a family of service. My father was a police officer and mom took care of us at the house. I'm one of three children and grew up playing sports, doing the whole thing Boy Scouts. Born and raised Irish Catholic, and I was excited when I learned about what underwater demolition teams were UDTs back in World.
Speaker 2:War II demolition teams were UDTs back in World War II and decided that that's what I wanted to do when I grew up and later come to find out that they had eventually evolved to SEAL teams and that sounded even better for a young man in my position.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. So tell me about what your career was like in those first few years of service. How did it go?
Speaker 2:It was great. I was always humbled by being with the type of people I worked with, men and women who were just extraordinary, high-caliber, self-motivated and very intelligent. I walked around with giants. I admired everybody. Well, most people that I've worked with I admired and wanted to emulate, and I was there before 9-11. I joined in 94. I served a few years as a medic with Marine Corps United States Marine Corps as a corpsman and then I went to SEAL training in 97 and graduated in 98.
Speaker 1:Wow, so tell me about some Europe, kosovo, iraq.
Speaker 2:I don't even remember.
Speaker 1:You just been, you were all over, I mean before this happened? How many years were you in? Before we talk about what we're going to talk about, oh, I was at.
Speaker 2:I was at about 18 years when this occurred.
Speaker 1:And at that point you had pretty much grown up in the Navy, like this was what you knew, this was your career and you deployed several times. You were with the teams doing all kinds of work on behalf of our nation. What was your path at that point, like at the 17-year mark? What was your goal? Like where?
Speaker 2:were you going with your career? Yeah, I actually. At about that point I'd actually succumbed to symptoms of traumatic brain injury that I'd been trying to mask and caused by concussion, caused by blast injuries. I was a breacher, along with other roles that I had in the SEAL teams, but unfortunately the breaches tend to get a little brunt of it and overexposed to many types of blast injuries, improvised explosive devices, concussions from other things, concussions from other things and eventually I had to come to the realization, after some training with guys, that I had forgotten what we had just done and I was about to deploy with them as a leader and I didn't have the I couldn't remember an evolution that we had just completed. And so I eventually finished the day and went to my boss and told him that we had a problem and he was very professional, very loving, and told me that he'd swing the bat and we'll find out what's going on.
Speaker 2:I ended up going to Walter Reed in Washington, which is home of the NICO National Intrepid Center of Excellence, and I was diagnosed with traumatic brain injuries and that was the turning point in my career that to leave the SEAL team. I was with everybody I loved at that point and have to take a not have to choosing to take a role as a training command, going to basic training command or BUDS in Coronado California. At that point in time, that was probably my darkest day. Traumatic brain injuries. We could do a podcast just on that. Of course we could and I would be open to it. But it's, yeah, it's debilitating. Open to it, but it's yeah, it's debilitating. And to recognize at least that's what it was and to see that up on the screen with the neurologist was a eureka moment, because it's heartbreaking to be able to perform at a level one day and then just not being able to formulate a sentence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so that's that's where you were when this uh incident happened. You were at a training command, uh. You were taking um a strategic pause from the teams, uh, to try to focus on your health and to become better. Am I understanding that correctly?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just I wasn't even there yet. Actually, I was on my way when I was introduced to the woman who would later become my accuser through mutual friends and I had informed them of my position. I told them I had just gotten out of the hospital and I had informed them of my position. I told them I had just gotten out of the hospital and I was in no position to start a serious. I didn't have a place to live, I couldn't start a relationship, I was in no mental space to do so, and I was talked into it to meeting the person and to start dating, and I should have never been in that position, but I chose to do so and about a month later, after well, I'd say five weeks after we'd been dating, we'd seen each other multiple times, we did become sexually active too fast and I saw a lot of flags that were very concerning, like what, and I broke it off and the reason I'm asking is because I think that this is sort of where the miscommunication sometimes takes place.
Speaker 1:Is that sometimes these false accusations do come from a place of anger and a place of hate, and I just want to know what it was you saw and where the communication between the two of you broke down. If you don't mind me asking, no, that's a great question.
Speaker 2:No matter what I said and no matter how direct and honest I was, I told her on our first date over dinner that I was not in a position to start a serious relationship. If she wanted to have company, if she wanted to go do fun things, there was no. There was no mention on my part of being sexually active. But and that age? I guess the age we were in. It was expected not by me, but it happened and what was said is apparently not what she heard or what she made it up to be, no matter how direct and honest I was come to find out later.
Speaker 2:This is all after the fact. She had been telling her girlfriends and her family that we were in love and we were going to get married. We were in love and we were going to get married. I had found out after the fact that she was part of a group of women who had either dated or married seals and even though she was not married herself, nor was she dating a seal at the time until she met me, she had dated several seals prior, and things that were later deemed inadmissible were things like her text messages to this group saying I'm finally in the club I'm going to be. You know it's love for me. I'm part of the wives the wifey network. I'm part of the Wives, the Wifey.
Speaker 1:Network. So she had a story in her head that was not the same story that you were communicating to her. Yet these were things that the court declared through a motion. I'm assuming that couldn't be entered into this discussion. So the jury was not privy to any of the lead up or any of the ways in which maybe a miscommunication may have happened before the accusation. Is that true?
Speaker 2:Partially. Sadly, there's no jury. We went judge alone because the jury had been stacked by the command that had charged me with the crime. So the leading SAPR representative, sexual assault prevention and reporting representative for the command was on that jury, among other people.
Speaker 1:Interesting so that's something that I don't think a lot of the audience understands is that some of the times, these juries are being stacked by the same people that have connections to the convening authorities and there really isn't any, as far as I know, there's no prohibition on that so the same people who are deciding your fate could have relationships or vested interests in perhaps not seeing a fair outcome, and you understood that. So as you went to your court-martial, you thought, well, okay, maybe if I have a judge, a judge would be more impartial. Was that your thought process?
Speaker 2:That was my thought process, especially being a female judge. Anybody who reads, please don't take my word for this. Just look into it. Everything's public knowledge now and look for yourself, and look for yourself. Anybody who reads this trial, the record of trial or the case law will see that well.
Speaker 2:I'll let you determine for yourself, but it was pretty cut and dry, to the point where everybody told me the entire time I'm sorry you're going through this, but there's no evidence to support the allegations. So we relied that I was innocent until proven guilty, which we've. That's why we're here today. We've discovered that the military legal system I won't call it judicial does not abide, does not need to abide, by law, by the Constitution, the premier, well, the only law enforcement agency that investigated me NCIS, as they should investigated me for, I believe, 18 months approximately and never testified in court. I was convicted solely on the accuser's testimony.
Speaker 1:You mean you couldn't cross-examine the NCIS investigators?
Speaker 2:They were never called to court, they were never called to testify. The government didn't call, which that in itself shouldn't that be telling? And they are. They don't work for the Department of Justice or they don't abide by the custom. The United States or, excuse me, Naval Criminal Investigative Service works for Secretary of the Navy. So, according to whatever is best, whatever paints the Navy in the best picture, regardless of credibility, regardless of merit, the truth is a terrible defense.
Speaker 1:Right, and you're right, Keith. That is why we're here today. Your case is a representative case of several other cases that I've covered on the Stories of Service podcast and other podcasts that now our military podcast community is starting to cover. Special shout out to Aaron Love. He just had Arvis Owens on his show that will be coming out soon. Misfit Nation is now doing podcasts on it. So more and more of the military podcast community is coming out and not being afraid to talk about false allegations or miscarriages within the military justice system. And, Jen and Rodney, I do want to bring you on at this point to share your thoughts. I'm going to add you as well to the stage, Jen. I know you guys didn't meet him until after Keith was sentenced, but tell me a little bit, Jen. Did you understand before this happened that there were issues within the military justice system?
Speaker 4:I don't think. I don't think you know that until you're immersed in it. So like, like my bio says I was, I was a ship driver for the Navy and so I've screened for CO special mission and those are like recruiting districts, Briggs on the shore side and then on the operational side it's like the LCACs and that kind of stuff. So it was a billet that, because I didn't screen for CO float, that I came to a special mission billet, and so I don't think you understand the military justice system on the confinement side until you're part of it, Right, and so I didn't have any.
Speaker 1:You'd have any, not higher, knowledge, and I think that's why there's not that much exposure on this issue, because we don't have the investigators, or we don't have the people like yourself who served at the brigs, or there's so much shame behind a sexual crime that it's so hard to get anyone to to openly discuss it. And I've later found out there's even religious organizations, sadly, that won't take on these kinds of subjects even they, even though they are miscarriages to our criminal defense system or our criminal justice system rather, and so that's a lot of times why these things are not being exposed. And, rodney, I know that your camera is having a little bit of trouble, but I definitely want to try to get you, to get your thoughts on this, so I'm going to try turning this over to you. I'll unmute your mic and then see if I can get you on here. But did you know before you served in this capacity that this was an issue?
Speaker 5:Not to the level or the degree that Keith has gone through. And then what I further learned while in the environment, like Jen said, until you're immersed in it, you don't have the full picture. Through our experiences in the military, we all have legal men, we all have someone we can go to, we're taught the classes, but we don't know how the picture paints out or you know how it really works until you're immersed in it.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, that that's. I think that's an apt way to look at it, because it's something that, like, a lot of us just don't know about, and they don't know why we're doing all these shows about it, because they haven't had to be the subject of it. So I'm going to go now back to where the misunderstanding and the breakdown happened between you and your accuser. So you go to break it off with her, is my understanding? Like after a while, there was just so many red flags and you were like, okay, this isn't healthy, I need to break this off. Is that correct? Oops, I'm going to unmute you. That's my fault. Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, and what happens next after you break it off?
Speaker 2:off. She writes me a nasty letter email, rather, accusing me of rape.
Speaker 1:The last time we had sexual contact was not consensual. She contacted San Diego. So you had a heads up that she was gonna do this with the letter to you. You had a heads up that this might happen.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, I guess it was simultaneously that she was reaching out to the authority. So I went to my command, I brought them a copy of that, showed it to them and told them I'm going to get a lawyer. And they said, absolutely, I did so and nothing happened. In San, the attorney kept me abreast and and about a week or two later I got a call to go to the office for NCIS and in San Diego and went not knowing what it was about.
Speaker 2:I thought actually it might have been something related to work until the special agents there there was a male and a female special agent speaking with me, interviewing me and making small talk, and I asked why am I here? What is this about? And they asked if I knew a person by her name. And they asked if I knew a person by her name. I said yes, I do. And they said what she had made accusations about and I said I understand. And at that point in time I said I have an attorney and so I won't make any more comments. And it was. It was amazing. It was. I've never been in that position. It was a punch to the chest, being read Miranda rights and having a DNA swab taken at that office before I left, where I had flashback of us taking DNA swabs of enemy combatants on target, and here I was being accused of being the enemy or being a predator, a monster.
Speaker 1:It's insane to me, and it was based on zero evidence. And so now you're at the court-martial, we'll just fast forward. You have the investigation. Nobody from NCIS testifies. You probably didn't even know to ask if your lawyer could cross-examine the NCIS agent. Would that have been? Or call them up as a subpoena, them as a witness? Could you have been able to do that? I'm just curious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. I was accused in March of 2013, charged in December of 2013. And then my court martial wasn't until October of 2014. I was absolutely depleted. I was exhausted, every day waking up not knowing what's going on. And the moment you're accused, of course, your life changes forever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the investigation is the punishment.
Speaker 2:I lost my security clearance, I lost my reputation, I lost anything, I was ostracized at work, and I think that's really what we've come to in lawfare you and I have spoken of, where they just bombard you with so much of your time, your energy and your resources You're not going to be able to outsp. Spend the United States government.
Speaker 1:I was terrified of investigation towards the last portion of my career and I talked about that today for the first time on social media and I'm still like dreading all the messages. I'm going to read about it and I'm going to move on from it. But it's the most terrifying thing in the world when somebody is accusing you of a UCMJ violation because you know they've got the full fleet of lawfare against you. They can get any attorneys that they want to come after you and especially in your case, Keith, they not only can get your, they not only.
Speaker 1:I get so mad about this. They not only not provide you with an attorney, they not only not no guarantee of getting an investigator on your side, they have special victims, advocates, extra lawyers that they throw at the defense. So you're not even getting just the full weight of the prosecution, the full weight of the convening authorities, the full weight of, maybe, juries that have been biased or a judge who's been biased. You now are fighting lawfare by yourself. And guess what? Your only option is to pay, pay as much as you can out of pocket, and so that's where you were around the time that you were convicted. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Exactly After being diagnosed with brain injuries that I had to come to in combat Um and then trying to to to research for myself and understand and read all the legalese um and exactly what was going on. So, no, I'm grateful for the attorneys that I did have.
Speaker 1:And they did the best they can, probably with less than ideal circumstances.
Speaker 2:I believe that they truly thought that they believed in the system. They believed that I was innocent until proven guilty and the government was not proving me guilty, so therefore it shouldn't be an issue. However, that wasn't the case and I don't believe it is. I still believe it's not the case With things such as this. I believe you're guilty until proven innocent. As this. I believe you're guilty until proven innocent. Which brings me to why I think our viewers should care about this, why the general population of the United States of America should even care about this happening in the military. This isn't my personal fight. It's a window into how our country's most trusted institution, our military, our protectors, handle justice. If we allow these corners to be cut there, it chips away at the same constitutional protections every American relies on.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, whether you're wearing a uniform or not. This is about the kind of nation that we all want to live in, and them doing that to somebody who's protected and defended his entire life, took an oath to uphold the Constitution and risked his life and all of his friends' lives in order to do that.
Speaker 1:It's and I think the one thing, too, that we definitely have to talk about is and darren lopez is on the call today and he's done so much research on this issue is the political climate that was taking place during the time that these accusations were being lodged. This was a time when the military was trying to crack down rightly so on sexual assault. They were trying to stamp out the numbers of complaints that were coming forward, and so they saw that there was a problem. And I will tell you I have a very dear friend I won't name her who firsthand sexual assault allegation which went into a person just retiring full benefits at 06. And to this day she does not feel this person got justice.
Speaker 1:So I know personally that there are cases where victims did not get justice, so rightly so. They were trying to do something about it. But what they did and Keith and Rodney and Jen, please feel free to chime in on this because I'm definitely not the expert but what I saw from my research is that they swung the pendulum all the way over to the other side to believe all victims at all costs, and they had pressure from Congress to do so, to the point where convening authorities and others knew that they were not going to get promoted if they didn't have convictions, or they were not going to get promoted if they dropped a charge at the convening authority level that lacked no evidence. They were just going to send it on to a court-martial even if there was no evidence. I mean, is that something that you personally saw, rodney or Jen? I'll go ahead and add you back to the stage. Please feel free to chime in.
Speaker 4:I'll take ahead and add you back to the stage. Please feel free to chime in, I'll take that one. So I became the EXO of USS Anchorage in May of 2013. And during that time, we were directed by Congress through the type commanders, to personally deliver sexual assault training. And what the changes that Congress made to what sexual assault meant? Right, they changed the language in the UCMJ to what it meant. I think that article 134, is it 120? I can't remember what article it is, but it goes to like WW, I think. So that's the number of allegations, the number of things that you can be charged under sexual assault. So me and the commanding officer had to personally deliver this to our crews. It's Article 120.
Speaker 4:I was thankful to have a. It's Article 120, yeah, so, being a woman, right, I had a male commanding officer, but I had a female doctor and a female supply officer as a department head for me, and so we personally took that on to make sure that everybody understood what it meant to say that right. And then I took the women aside and said it happens. It happens in society. We're a microcosm of society in the military. But be careful with that right, because you're going to change your life and somebody's life forever if what you're saying is not true, and because they will believe you and they, being the military justice system, will believe you and you're going to send this guy. This was before I ever knew I was going to be the XO and then command of the brig, but you know, I was very you had to be. It was a sensitive topic to talk about anyway and stand up. I had my crew was 700 people and many of them under the age of 30. So you know what I mean In a whole different. I'm a Gen Xer, so you know, and I was leading millennials and a younger generation, so you know it meant something right and I had to do it with that much passion, and so I was.
Speaker 4:I'll tell you, I was a victim, right when I was XO, of the Minesweeper. I was videotaped in my stateroom by one of my sailors and so I had to testify in court against him. Right, this is a guy that I had meritoriously advanced to E6. He had these videos of me when I was the XO. I became his captain and he served 10 months of my captain ride. So I was a year and a half as an XO and then he was 10 months of my captain ride. So I was a year and a half as an XO and then he was 10 months. After that, um, they found videos of me and, um, it was alarming to me, um, how much video he had of me and it was only from the neck down, coming out of it, coming out of so on a Minesweeper, the uh.
Speaker 1:Jen, I think we lost you, but we got the story and when you come back I will definitely want to hear more and that's the oh, there you go.
Speaker 1:I think I got you back. We're having a little bit of technical difficulties and I want to thank the audience for sticking with us on this, but yeah, this this is something that definitely needed to be addressed, but also needed to be addressed with a due process system, and that's not what happened to you, Keith. You were found guilty and, like you said, anyone can see the trial of transcript and see what evidence they had against you and what ended up happening. So you go. Were you shocked when this verdict came out? I bet, because I think it sounds like you guys thought that this would be dropped at court-martial, correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, everybody was shocked. My attorney, one of my court-appointed attorney. The tenant started, her eyes just swelled up and dumped. Her jaw dropped.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was very unexpected. Want to emphasize here is that we know there are victims of sexual assault, sexual harassment and predatory behavior, which is what, unfortunately, you even experienced in a leadership position, right.
Speaker 4:So you know, I went into my XO ride on Anchorage with that, right, with that experience. I went from the minesweeper to Iraq and then Anchorage. So I had that and I shared it. I said I had no idea it happened. Ncis found these on accident, right and so, and then I got sent these videos and I knew it was me because I have tattoos where that person has tattoos, so you know.
Speaker 4:So I went and I told my story in front of my crew, unashamed, right, this happens and this really happens to people, and you know, we have to be survivors. I don't want to be a victim, but, and I took that into the brig, right, and so when I got to the brig, I got to about three months where I was nothing, right, because there was a long gap in the turnover, and so I got to really know the prisoner population and Keith was angry when I got there and that's an, that is an understatement. And so I had to go back. And how am I going to? I knew he was a senior person. I could tell, right, um, and so I had to go back and read his record of trial.
Speaker 1:We're cutting you off. It is such an important part of the conversation. But she says that she had to go back lead record of trial. Rodney, let me turn it over to you and tell me a little bit about what it. Oh, jen, did I get you back? Let me see. Nope, okay, rodney, I'm gonna turn it over to you and see and ask how you met keith, and let me go ahead and unmute you, or? I think you're mute, you might? Yeah, let me. Okay, you're unmuted. Go ahead, ronnie.
Speaker 5:Hey, yeah, definitely. I'm at Keith 2014, 15, right around there end of 14, end of 15, I think, at the break where Jen was the turning over, becoming commanding officer there soon.
Speaker 4:Can you guys hear me? Yeah, Jen.
Speaker 1:Hold on, we'll go back to you here in just a second. Just had some technical difficulties on your end. Go ahead, rodney.
Speaker 5:Well, I was working my way through the process of the different jobs. It was my first time coming on short duty, something you got to do. You got to call C-Duty. We were lucky to do. That is how I ended up there at the bridge Doing so, went through the counseling program, long travel range, recoveries for detainees, all the different things there, and then I ended up in the dorm assignments and that's when I met keith um and doing so, uh, our meeting I've always felt like I had this something. I can understand the person, but right away, you know, and that's like a gene for me.
Speaker 5:but um I knew there was something more to keith and uh, through that process we got to x and found out what that was. He served with the same type of people. His manners, his posture, all those things led to the way that I was thinking about him. And then I got to know him personally at a time of need where it was critical for him to be able to still sustain, you know, have normalcy, andcy, um, and you know and breathe, so to speak, and all the while having a huge part to do with Jen and the big piece that came with that whole dynamic.
Speaker 5:You know, I mean Cynthia, I was the human resources equal opportunity Yosemio. You know, talking to Jen every day, dealing with you know, uh, detainees issues, staff member issues. So we I had a very intimate understanding of what he was dealing with in the present moment and what community he came from, because I served in that community with those people, you know. So, and the whole piece.
Speaker 1:I had a very unique understanding, right relationship um, I'm going to turn this over to you, keith, and tell me a little bit about how you were able to eventually open up to Jen, like how that relationship evolved. Jen sort of painted the picture that when you were first in there, you were understandably very angry and understandably very bitter towards the system. Because now, with no evidence and again all transparency that this is not a crime you committed and we'll talk later about the affidavit that eventually cleared you how was she able to help you and how were you guys able to work together?
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. If it's possible, I would love for her to tell the story, if the voice works out.
Speaker 1:Let's see if I can do that.
Speaker 2:If not, I'll be happy to.
Speaker 1:All right, jen, over to you. I'm going to unmute you. Let's see if I can do it. So I again. Oh no, she's muted herself, unfortunately. So sometimes, like I said, we have these technical difficulties and my audience is absolutely wonderful and knows that sometimes tech will play a part, but the story will get out there regardless of the tech challenges. So I'm going to turn this back over to you and see if we can get Jen back. But if we can't, over to you, oh, there she is again. Let's see if I can get her back on the call. Let me remove that other one. But yeah, these are sometimes the things that we just work through as the process goes through. But let me go ahead. Go ahead, keith. I'm going to just turn it over to you initially.
Speaker 2:Certainly Well, thank you. Certainly Well, thank you. I've had conversations with Jen. Now, knowing what I know, and I think the first thing I wanted to apologize to her. I have apologized to her because I was so angry, of course, in that position, of course she gave me grace and that was one of the beautiful things I got from that experience the amount of human beings that gave me grace. And she would come in every day to check the housing areas and I was bitter, I was angry. I saw her honestly as another female who was going to attack me, and so it was. She'd say Mr Berry, how are we doing today? And I said fine, and that was it. And the next day, how are we doing? Fine, I wanted really nothing to do with her until the one day she sat across the table from me in a common space Now here's the commanding officer and who is the warden, if you will, of the prison.
Speaker 2:And she asked me once again how am I doing? I said fine, and she looked and she said you and I are going to have a beer together someday. And I said fine, and she looked and she said you and I are going to have a beer together someday, me unbeknownst that I had no idea that she had taken the time and energy to have read my record of trials or have read all of this information, all the evidence to have spoken with Rodney ad nauseum and to have come to this conclusion. I was unaware of that at the time, but it's amazing when you see human beings acting like human beings to one another.
Speaker 1:Jen, over to you. I think you muted yourself, so I don't know if you're able to unmute yourself. I can't do it on my end. I went to my car. There you go, you unmute yourself.
Speaker 4:I can't do it on my end.
Speaker 1:I went to my car there you go, you're on, I can hear you.
Speaker 4:Just great, I went to my car, because I think something in my office is interfering because I'm sitting in my car. Okay, yeah, so when the parole packages go so a little bit about sex offender treatment. So the Naval Consolidated Brigade Miramar is the only naval installation right the military Navy confinement facility that has sex offender treatment. So the Naval Consolidated Brigade Miramar is the only Naval installation right the military Navy confinement facility that has sex offender treatment. That's why there are 80 to 90% sex offenders that are incarcerated there. Keith didn't qualify for sex offender treatments. He didn't have enough time on his sentence. He got a 36 month sentence and you had to have, uh, um 48 months or longer.
Speaker 1:So I'll leave that there okay, um, I think we might have. Okay, go ahead. I, I got the part where you said about the 48. Oh gosh, it's like. It's like you know what I almost feel and I know it's not true like it's something just conspiring against us to not have this very tough conversation. I, you have to wonder. I mean, I'm not, I'm not trying to be miss conspiracy theory here, but uh, there's a reason why, uh, sometimes some big leagues have to sponsor these kinds of podcasts because, unfortunately, us small potatoes uh can get banned and can get uh canceled. So I think, uh, keith, you're just gonna have to take it away and do I'm going to add her back to the stage once more and keep trying, because I'm not going to let those kinds of things censor us or not have these very important conversations. So, okay, jen, you go right ahead. I'm going to try one more time to get you back on. All right, jen, can you hear me? Can you guys hear me? Okay, go right ahead.
Speaker 1:So we got the part. I'm going to go back to what you said. I'm going to rewind. And you said basically that Keith did not qualify for sex offender treatment because of the fact that he was only in the brig for a certain period of time. So tell me a little bit about what happened at that point. Okay, we're still not able to get that part of it, so I think what we'll do is we'll go back to you, keith, and we'll just say how did you start to develop your rapport with both Rodney and Jen as those 40, as the, because I believe you spent how many months? You spent 18 months in the brig. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:36. Well, I got out six months for good behavior.
Speaker 1:Okay. So 30 months, Wow, okay. And one of the things that I've also heard from other advocates about the sex offender treatment is that you basically have to say that you're guilty in order to get that treatment. Is that true?
Speaker 2:Yes, and I believe that's what Jen may have been going towards. The first day of the treatment, we sat in a classroom and they gave us all a sheet that we were to sign and that was what we had been convicted of and it was an admission of guilt, and I wouldn't sign it. Um, so I was told I was ha, I would have to sign it, and I said I didn't have to. I had to breathe, I had to sleep if possible, and I had to remain within the walls of a confinement until released. But I didn't have to sign something I wasn't guilty of. And um for um for that I was uh.
Speaker 2:I was removed and sent to solitary confinement for 30 days.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, I mean that. That that just tells you that if you are somebody who is innocent and you're working on your appeals, you are punished for continuing to fight your case and there is already something within the system to say you're guilty even if you are not guilty, and that doesn't sound like due process to me. Does that sound like due process to you, rodney? I'll try turning this over to you. See if you're able to get on and let me go ahead and unmute you. All right, let me see. Yep, I've unmuted you. You should be able to unmute on your end.
Speaker 5:There you go over to rodney hey, I got no sound, if you guys can hear me, I can hear you just great can you hear me? I can okay, I got no sound from you.
Speaker 5:I can't hear anything from you oh, this is so strange one thing, if I can muddle through this, um, keith and i's relationship manifestance is something much greater. Thereafter, release, when I left the brig, I went back to the Naval Special Warfare community. So you know, to do my last tour, slash, retire. I had just got there, excited to be back in. You know the community people I knew and you know to retire on the platform that I was used to and, to be honest, the getaway, a lot of that I just thought you know experience there at the brick. But, um, when I got a call, I had checked in and I got a call saying I need to report to the commanding officer's office. You know that ain't a good welcome, you know. So I was like, oh man, I just got home, I ain't messed up already, you know. So I had this, this little thing. But then I come to find out. He asked me if I knew a keith berry. I said yes, of course I do, and I explained to him how and what capacity, and you know for how long. And he says to me that, well, he'll be returning to naval special warfare and I want your face to be the first face he sees when he checks in. So I've reached out to keith because at this point we had had contact, I'd noticed the case had been overturned and I wasn't doing anything illegal to make contact with. You know, a previously accused right um.
Speaker 5:So I met him in the parking lot. You know big hugs, smiles I made, so you know just a wonderful moment, you know, and I'm, you know he's dressed to the nines, big suit, everything. And I remember his mindset that he said I'll never put on another military uniform again. I'll be here every day. I'll do whatever you got me to need me to do, sir, but don't expect me to put that uniform back on. That resonated with me because he was able to come full circle and express to what he felt was the wrongdoers, how he felt. When I needed you in the time of need to have my back, you didn't. And I want you to know that need to have my back, you didn't. And I want you to know that, hey, I can't honor that, you know. So I have to move on. So, um, and me, I mean he could tell you much more. Yeah, me and this man, we talk too much, you know, sometimes, and it always feels like it's not enough. So, uh, yeah, I just want to make sure that I had to get that, you know, get that piece clear of his heart. I mean because that spoke volumes to his heart.
Speaker 5:What he had to deal with there every day, um, whether it's from other staff members who were improperly trained, who didn't understand, you know how to uh work in high tip, high stress levels and stay calm and and still be effective. And you know, being a mature person, a senior leader, knowing that he was wrongfully accused, that was extremely, you know, challenging and having you know vents or places to wipe. You know, so to speak, um was important during that three and a half, four year time. You know, from the time he came in the book of receiving but and to the time he was released, you know, from that same place, and Keith, how did you stay sane during those periods, Like, how did you that whole 30 months that you were in?
Speaker 1:what was, what was? What kept you going? Thank you, thank you, rodney.
Speaker 5:But I can't hear you guys again.
Speaker 1:Understand. Thank you. So, keith, over back to you. Tell me a little bit Now. We'll just kind of go down the timeline and I appreciate the audience sticking with me. I didn't say at the beginning of the call this will be over an hour, but this one will be over an hour. We'll try to not make it more than two hours. I think we'll stay under that. But this is a longer conversation about the military justice system and the things that we need to fix.
Speaker 2:So Keith, tell me a little bit about how you were able to stay sane during this period. Oh, that's another gift that I was blessed with through this ordeal. Rodney and Jen were both there. Jen I wasn't aware of, she was covert, but Rodney just being available to me to allow me to come into his office and just vent as a man, man to man probably saved me immensely, or it didn't, probably it did.
Speaker 2:I had a remarkable group of people supporting me that had been there the entire time. I came from a community that I was mentoring teenage kids before this happened high school-age kids and when I was first accused, the first thing I did was contact all their parents, let them know what had happened, and unanimously they said we're so sorry to hear this, what do you need from us? And my response was I appreciate the gesture, but nothing's going to come of it unbeknownst to me. And they were there for me when I was found guilty. The courtroom was packed with all of my friends, their parents, the kids I mentored, so all of them were there to see me through it. Weekend visitations, letters, phone calls.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's remarkable. I didn't know that part of your story. That's remarkable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you find out. I've said many times that I got more from the experience than they took from me, meaning that I got to experience the very rare opportunity that what people actually think about you and actually say about you that is reserved typically for funerals or memorials, where it was all completely transparent. I got to hear it all and the love was overwhelming and still to this day, with Jen and Rodney while they're here today their courage and their attitudes. Jen mentioned that she has had her own issues and trials and tribulations with this, and I think that's exactly why she's so beautiful that we can come together. The system has tried to divide us, or it's done a pretty good job.
Speaker 1:It really has. It really has it's so sad or it's done a pretty good job. It really has.
Speaker 2:It really has it's so sad and we can unite together. It's not men versus women, it's not us versus them. So let's please, all the people that have been involved in this, the accuser, the bad actors that were involved I forgive you. I get it. You made a mistake. Let's move on. Let's do better. Can we do that as adults? Because it's not getting better and we're the only ones that are going to be able to do that? Absolutely.
Speaker 1:We have a responsibility to fix our criminal justice system and that responsibility now falls on the current Department of War to look into the ways in which we prosecute crimes, to look into our administrative system and to see that either side it doesn't matter, like you said, it's not about men and women is not getting due process. I will not allow myself to be pigeonholed into only being a false accusation advocate. I will not allow myself to be pigeonholed into only supporting victims of sexual assault. That's not going to happen on the Stories of Service podcast. What's going to happen on the stories of service podcast is we are going to advocate for a proper and fair criminal justice system.
Speaker 1:And, rodney, I'll try to turn it over to you because I do see you on the screen. I don't know if you can hear me. If you can't hear me, that's okay, but I think that's what you're here trying to do as well, and that's why you came here to support Keith. Are you able to hear me? And if not, that's totally okay. Doesn't sound like he is. So what I guess I will say at this point is let's go back to your story. Let's go back to those 30 months you go through, those trials and tribulations. You have some friends like Jen and Rodney. In your corner you have people from your past who, like you said, that was pretty powerful. What you said about the people who showed up are the same people that we think about when something tragic happens to someone and they realize who their friends are and that's what happened to you and then you serve your 30 months in the brig and then what happens next?
Speaker 2:So I completed the amount of time which is, as you said, 30 months. I got out six months for good behavior. The government there's up to 30 years for this. So if the government got the prosecution got what they requested, that's the mandatory excuse me, that's the maximum sentence. The minimum sentence is the three years which, in my opinion, I received because the judge, who I went judge alone, knew exactly what she was doing. She was part of the system. She's going to do what she's told to, and so she had to do something. So she gave me the minimum and so she had to do something. So she gave me the minimum.
Speaker 2:But I was a convicted felon. I'd gotten out and I had nowhere to go, no way to support myself. I was dishonored but discharged. I have loss of all rights, pays and privileges. I had to register as a sex offender and the family that I had rented a place from that I was mentoring their teenage boys at the time, who had since become great friends of mine now family. They took me in and I didn't have any means to support that and their attitude was don't worry about it, just come home.
Speaker 2:And that was horrible, if being in prison was terrible. Now being removed from prison and brought to society, but you're still outcast, I can't get a job, I can't socialize symptoms that I've realized, understanding what sexual assault victims would go through the loss of trust, the loneliness and existential crisis, the not being heard by people all those things I was going through as well and so very isolated, even though the neighbor thank God they were there for me. But I lived like that for about a year until is that right? No, that's not true. Year until is that right? No, that's not true. I think that's about six months until I got the call that my second appeal had been denied and I was convicted felon for the rest of my life. And that was it. The day after I got a call from my original trial attorney and asked if she'd gotten the information, I said yes, thank you. I need to process this and figure out what I'm going to do. And I thought she was talking about the denial, the denial of the appeal.
Speaker 1:And this was your let me make sure I understand this. So you serve your time. And then, even after you serve your time, you're still working through the appeals process to clear your name. And this was your second appeal. First appeal goes through the Navy. These are people that don't understand court-martials and I'm still learning myself. So first appeal is through the service and then your appeal kind of goes up to the CAF. I think it's like the oh, go ahead. Please correct me yeah.
Speaker 2:No, it's rubber stamps. It's sadly, that's it. They don't look over any evidence. They look, they don't look. It's did it? Did it get the? The check marks? That's what the appeals are. Okay, yeah, and these are just to look for technical, of technical errors in the cases.
Speaker 1:So your attorney calls you.
Speaker 2:So my attorney calls me and tells me that there's a whistleblower and a junior officer who is a lieutenant commander in the JAD Corps overhears a conversation between the judge, advocate general of the Navy well, the deputy at the time and my convening authority a conversation about me that they should not have been having. And he parts of these conversations. That's right, and he didn't know what to do with this. So he runs it up the chain of command as he should and nobody wants to touch it, nobody can help him. He can't sleep at night. He's married, he's got kids, he's got a career. He finally says I don't know what to do with this. He the only. He calls my um trial attorney because she had gone to jack school with him, him, I believe, and reaches out to him, tells her the information. She reaches back out to me. I contact my appellate attorneys. They don't know what to do with the information.
Speaker 2:At that point in time, admiral Louridge, my convening authority, had since retired. So they sat around a desk for a few hours debating what to do and eventually one of the attorneys said let's call him. Let's call him and ask. That's all we can do. And they did, and they called retired Rear Admiral Patrick Lorge, and they asked him about my case and he said yes. And he said yes. And they asked they said, sir, do you understand? We represent senior chief Keith Berry. And he said I understand who you represent, I understand what you're asking me and the answer is yes. They asked if he'd be willing to sign that affidavit. He said send it over and he'll sign it, which he did without redacting anything, only adding the last paragraph.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and I'll actually read that last paragraph. It's paragraph 12. And if you go on the um, my website, teresa's tapestries, you will see a link that says false accusations and this uh affidavit, as well as keith's story, which was also shared on the cleared hot podcast. Uh, is is number five, so you will see that there and I also linked to the affidavit in the show notes. But but number 12 is on a personal note. I would ask you to forgive my failure in leadership and right the wrong that I committed, in this case against Senior Chief Berry. Ensure justice prevails and, when doubt exists, allow a man to remain innocent.
Speaker 2:Powerful, keith, that's so, so incredibly powerful. So here's the thing. He's another gentleman I'd like to shake his hand someday. I never have. If he ever questions it, I certainly forgive him. I've failed in leadership. I don't know a leader that hasn't failed, so I am very grateful he could have hung up the phone. He could have said don't call me, and I would have been a convicted felon for the rest of my life. So what he did was remarkable. He was put in a tough situation and eventually he stood up. Thank goodness he had the courage to do so. So again, let's just do better.
Speaker 1:Do better, exactly.
Speaker 2:The due diligence. He recognized it. Everybody else recognized it. The accuser recognized it, certainly the judge. There was no due diligence. It was a kangaroo court. They were found out because of people's consciousness, because of people doing the right thing and having the courage to do so. My case was found out, I was overturned and dismissed. I can't count how many cases Countless cases, lopez, for example. So many countless cases, darren Lopez. Yes't count how many cases Countless cases, lopez, for example. So many countless cases, darren Lopez. Yes, that will never see justice. So the accusers aren't seeing justice. The true victims aren't seeing justice. Nobody's seeing justice. And this is the legal system that we have for the protectors of our nation that I chose to protect in order to make sure people have the right to a fair trial.
Speaker 1:Right and I'm calling on conviction integrity units. I'm calling on it. I have heard through the grapevine don't know if it's true that they are working on these issues. We did see an army memo come out that was circulating that they are considering the fact that false allegations exist, but no real substantive changes have been made, as far as I know, to the UCMJ system or to the administrative system, and it's a two-part solution. Number one we need to look at some of these older cases and re-examine whether or not justice was served. That's number one. And then number two we need to make changes in the way that we do discovery in the administrative process.
Speaker 1:For an example, I'll be having Davis Yance on my podcast early October. That is one of the main things that I'd like to talk to him about, and I've lost my camera now, but the main things that I'd like to talk to him about. And I've lost my camera now, but that also could be because of battery life, but I know you guys can still hear me. I'll try to get another camera going. But there are many ways that we can fix this and I call on the Department of War to make those changes and to examine these issues. I know they've got their TJAGs that need to be confirmed and need to be put in the right places and when those people are in the right places. That's where we want to see change and we will continue on the Stories of Service podcast to do shows about those who are impacted by this system until the system is fixed ultimately.
Speaker 1:But, jen, I'm going to try my best now to turn it back over to you and to give you some words about what this case has, how this case has impacted you, while I try to get my second camera on screen. So, jen, I'm going to go ahead and put you on. Let's see if I can hear you. I don't know if I'll be able to. I think you got to unmute yourself, so go ahead and try to unmute. If you're not able to, that's totally okay. So we shall see if you're able to do that. If not, let's see. I think I can hear you now. Jen. Go ahead. Uh, no, I'm losing you All right? Well, we were going to go ahead and now just try to go to you. Uh, rodney, uh, rodney, as you're listening to this case, uh, please share a little bit of your thoughts.
Speaker 5:Hey, yeah, um, are you still there?
Speaker 1:I can hear you just fine. Okay, I have really bad audio. Okay, well, jen, let's go ahead and just try your audio. I'll go ahead and turn this back over to you. What are some of your thoughts as you're listening. And you can go ahead and unmute yourself If we're able to and we're not, that's okay. That is okay. It's like everything that can go wrong does sometimes in life, but that is Murphy's law and we'll work through it. So, rodney, go ahead.
Speaker 5:I'll say some of my thoughts are there is much, much work that needs to be done at multiple levels, especially when you're talking about the judicial system in the military. You know, having the first-hand experience, like I said, um, seeing both sides of the table, and then being able to have the unique platform of all four branches right that operate in that same capacity, um, so, yeah, a lot needs to be done. Um, so yeah, a lot needs to be done and it's not as simple as you know. People sitting in a room talking about it, changing laws and how we treat gender and what have you, and those things, it's not that at all. Right, being able to see the same people, two different people, taught the same thing and get a different response out of it really changed. You know it really changes.
Speaker 5:It tells you that the material is the problem, it's not always the people. Sometimes, you know, it tells you that the, the ideal structure that you believe, that a model fits, all is perfect and it doesn't, right. You know every wrong person or guilty person doesn't look the same. Every innocent person doesn't behave the same. Every victim responds different, right, and the dynamics behind it sometimes, and the influences behind it, which is a greater conversation that you know we can talk about forever Definitely dictate the outcome, that they dictate the outcome immensely. So, again, like I said, there's much work to be done. I'm glad to have had the experience it took, you know, it gave me much more going forward in some of the work that I do now and I got two beautiful people out of it that I'll have, you know, until my dying day, right, but, yes, definitely, like I said, that's, that's why I'm going to leave it, because that's a whole nother podcast.
Speaker 1:Right and we had a great question come in here from Arvis and it says you know how do we start fixing the UCMJ? And I think that the best way that we, as advocates, could start fixing it is by making our voices heard. It's by having more investigators, more people like yourselves who have served in the criminal system within the military being willing to share their experiences. There is, sadly, Keith and Rodney and Jen. There's so much stigma around sexual crimes and, unfortunately, we need to stop being embarrassed to talk about responsible behavior among our youngest sailors, soldiers, Marines, Guardsmen and Space Force, Because if we can't have these conversations, then we can't grow and we can't heal. And so I believe that this is one way is doing exactly what we're doing here. Another way is by putting the pressure, as I'm doing today, on the Department of War, on the people who serve in these legal capacities, having other lawyers come on my podcast and talk about the things that need to be fixed. What would you say to that, Keith?
Speaker 2:I agree with you fully. We're all adults here and you're asking people to risk their lives and defend this nation and be responsible for other people's lives and millions of dollars of equipment and state secrets, but you can't have adult conversations. We've spoken about it before with a grown-up in the room. Just have all the men and women. Let's have the real conversations. Sexual assault should not be stigmatized, no more than the victims of sexual assault being able to tell their stories as they should, and I'm grateful that they do.
Speaker 1:Me too. Me too, jed, I'm going to try again to turn it over to you. I really want to get you a chance to speak and to tell us a little bit about how this case has impacted you, so I am going to add you now. Here we go Once more time, see if I can do it. It doesn't there we go. There you are, let's see if I can unmute. You See if you can unmute on your end and let's try one more time to get you on here. I really appreciate the audience sticking with me and able to do this. Go ahead, jen. Nope, no, I lost her once again. Okay, well, I think at this point. Uh, keith, you've shared your story. Tell us, and one of the things that you never told us when you were on with darren is where you are today and and where. Like what does life look like now? Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've gotten an enormous amount of how do we say phenomenal opportunity for growth from all of this experience and I get to work with young people. A good friend of mine he in my former profession. He also has a program for leadership. This is, as you mentioned, for leadership. This is, as you mentioned. As long as people are scared to talk about sexual assault, it's not going to go away.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:It's the dark monster in the room, true or false accusations, but we need to have this.
Speaker 1:We need to have them and we need the military podcasters to start. I can't tell you, keith, how many people have shared with me in confidence that they've been victims of false allegations and they're scared. In fact, there are prominent influencers with huge social media followings that I know have had sexual assault allegations, but they are afraid that if anyone knows that they were accused at any given time, even if, obviously, if it was investigated and it was dropped, they are still terrified of repercussions. And we have to stop being afraid of the fact that we have sex or people we have sex, sometimes outside of marriage too. I know that really angers the religious crowd, but that's what happens and that's life.
Speaker 1:And until we get comfortable talking about that, I, just like you said I think that's also part of the problem is that there's just such a discomfort in talking about these issues unless you're talking about victims. And even when you talk about victims, it's still difficult and still there are many people that don't want to hear that message either. So until we change that, we are not going to fix the system and, jen, I know you're doing everything you can to try to get a good signal, so I'm going to try my best one more time to get you back on to give some final words, but if we can't, we can't. So let's see if we can try to do that. I tend to not give up easily, as you guys can see through this call. Let's see. All right, I think you just need to unmute. There you go. You've unmuted, go ahead. Can you hear me? I can, oh good Lord.
Speaker 4:I told you before this call started it's normally the naval officers that really have a hard time with everything. So it's all good True to form. So I think I had just taken command when Keith was released and then I was probably towards the end of my naval career when everything was overturned and I had to go to my office and close my door because I was overwhelmed with the outcome. I knew in my heart of hearts like I tried to say earlier, I get to read the victim impact statements in a parole package that I knew he was never going to be approved for parole and I knew that it wasn't true. The allegations against him weren't true.
Speaker 1:Ah, jen, I lost you. I lost you. I think I might just be the only one now who has service. I'm seeing now that, unfortunately, I lost Keith. Let's see if I lost Rodney. I'm going to try to get you on, rodney, I really don't know what's going on with my tech today, so I do apologize that this has happened. It just seems really odd to me that this has happened, but I don't understand it. Rodney, can you hear me?
Speaker 5:Yes, I can definitely hear you.
Speaker 1:So tell me, as we're just kind of closing out the call and some people are having some tech issues, Yep, I can hear you just fine, Tell me a little bit. Oh yeah, Arvis says cyber warfare. Who said that? And we don't know for sure, but it is hard not to think that there might be some either.
Speaker 3:Godly thing going on or not godly, devilish thing going on.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. Some sort of ungodly that's what I meant. Ungodly thing going on, or there might be some sort of a hack, or we're just not very technically proficient. Could be any of those things but go ahead, rodney. Please share some of your, your final thoughts.
Speaker 5:The repair part. Right. That's what I think is. I don't say it's missing, but I think it's very important. That needs to be addressed to all of the things that you know Keith wants to happen Victims, non-victims, wrongful false statements, after that, you're dealing with a package. You're dealing with a person right. You're dealing with something, someone that has been through something, whether found guilty, exonerated or not. Right, you have to rebuild that individual and that work can't be isolated. Responsibility on the victim, on the individual or the person who went through this wrongful accusation. Right. I've been a part of Keith's journey, whether it's in South America, he's different places, he's trying this and it's all just trying to find himself Right and really get back to focus, and the government wasn't helping him with that, you know nobody was
Speaker 5:helping him. He had to do that and then he had to trust that the people he was opening up to and the experience he was opening himself up to wouldn't damage him more right or cause regression. You know a lot of the things working at the chicken farm, all that crap. He went through multiple conversations, late nights with him and climbing mountains, find, you know, cell tower searches I mean our signals and just to, to be that. You know we're each other's sound walls. Sometimes you know, um, and just to be that piece, man, it's like that. That's what's important to me and I think that that component will not only will it close the deal to me personally, I believe it will prevent further growth of that, because not only are you seeing the process through your healing and help the person deal with it thereafter, right, so that's going to really get people focused and to the right way of thinking, uh of, of how to to deal with the whole piece, not what you like, don't like, agree with, disagree, you know.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well, thank you.
Speaker 5:Rodney, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:I absolutely agree with you on everything you said. So, jen, I'm going to turn this over to you, or I'm going to try to. Here we go once more Back over to you. I think you are on. You're not on, mute, okay, go ahead.
Speaker 4:Keith's conviction was overturned and he was exonerated. I was overwhelmed and probably the best day of my time at the brig was that day and I sat in my office and cried for an hour because I knew that justice had finally been served and that he was going to be able to live his life normally. Justice had finally been served and that he was going to be able to live his life normally, and I think that's just what we that was. You know, that was important to me for him, just because of what I knew um from his record of trial, what I had witnessed with him, um, as you know, in as a prisoner in that population, um, and I was happy for him. That was the best part. And then finally getting to meet him a few years later after I'd already retired, and getting to hug him and tell him that I always believed him, I think that was my other biggest triumph. With him we forged this war.
Speaker 4:I see so many things wrong with the military justice system from a simplistic point of view.
Speaker 4:I'm a surface officer, I have an accounting degree, I'm by no means an attorney, but I think that the layperson is the one that's going to fix our military justice system, and that's just my humble opinion. I think that the confinement piece also needs to be refined. We're all over the map with sentencing. You know, there's so many things that are wrong that I, just like I said, I think the layperson is going to be the one that fixes it and it's going to be a common sense approach and again, that's my personal opinion. It's obviously not the department of the navies or you know, whoever you know was listening to this, that's maybe that's still a jag or whatever, but I do believe that we need to take in those experiences from leaders at the brig, whether it's the commanding officer, the executive officer, the senior civilians that work there, or it's, you know, the Rodneys that were every day behind that wire mentoring and leading the prisoner population. I think that's where we're really going to get our money's worth. And again, that's my personal opinion.
Speaker 1:Well, I thank you so much for sharing that, and I think that that's really where the direction of my show will go in future episodes. I didn't have a lot of time to delve into this, but our wonderful friends who are investigators, who are JAGs, who have worked in the penal system within the military, are the best ones to talk about this, and and you know what's really interesting is that I just read yesterday that we're having bringing back all these advisory panels, so I'd really love to see the Department of War put together an advisory panel.
Speaker 1:I would be happy to be a part of that advisory panel and I'm sure the three of you, if asked, would would would weigh in on that advisory panel and I'm sure the three of you, if asked, would weigh in on that advisory panel. So there are avenues for these types of discussions and I believe that the Department of War has done a lot of really amazing initiatives so far since President Trump has taken office, and I believe that this initiative is on their radar. I do believe that I sincerely hope it is and believe it, and I believe that with the advisory panels that they used to have in fact, they did used to have an advisory panel that was looking at this issue but unfortunately was disbanded but I did read, I believe, yesterday that they are bringing back a lot of these advisory panels. So I will say that that might be one solution as we work forward is to have good men and women who are willing to speak up, be on these advisory panels and work together to go forward.
Speaker 1:And with that, keith, I'm going to give you the last word on this. I want to thank the audience for joining us. Thank you for bearing with all the technical difficulties. This was such an important conversation that I was going to work through each and every single one of them to make sure that you guys got this information. But, keith, I want to close with any parting words that you might have at this time.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, Rodney and Jen, I love you guys. Thank you so much for being a part of my journey and being there for me. And Teresa, thank you so much for having the courage to do this. Let's just, as you mentioned, advisory board. I don't care who I talk to, but let's just do this all together and the government, the Department of Defense. Nobody's going to fix this unless we do.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I have hope. Like I said, I have hope. I have seen a lot of good things coming from this administration and I believe that this is another good thing that could come from this administration. So I will have hope, but in the meantime, I will continue to share these stories. So I want to thank all three of you for willing to come on the show. I will meet you backstage to say goodbye as I go full screen.
Speaker 1:I want to thank the audience for, like I said, your patience with some of the technical difficulties and joining us. Please share this conversation. Please share the reels that will come out. We're going to do our best to get some good reels going which will give people little snippets of some of the conversations and tell your friends about our podcast, because that's the only way that we're going to change these issues is by shining a light on them and exposing them, just like I had to expose something today that was very personal to me. I definitely want to always set the example and share the things that are hard for me to share as well. So thank you all for joining us.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go full screen say goodbye. Thank you everyone for joining us on this very special show. I may have another show this Thursday. I'm still waiting to hear back. It is a gentleman who is running for a congressional office, so really looking forward to talking to him, still trying to get that one together. But please stay tuned and, as I always close out these calls, please take care of yourselves, take care of each other and enjoy the rest of your day. Bye-bye now.