S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
From the little league coach to the former addict helping those still struggling, hear from people from all walks of life how they show up as a vessel for service and drive for transformational change. Hosted by Theresa Carpenter, a 29-year active duty U.S. naval officer who found service was the path to unlocking trauma and unleashing your inner potential.
S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
Unjustly accused | Faces 240k in debt!!! - S.O.S. #223
A life's trajectory derailed by a single night, a textbook case of injustice unfolding at one of America's most prestigious military academies. This urgent special episode of Stories of Service brings to light the troubling case of Joseph Fernau, a wrestler and former Air Force Academy cadet fighting to save his military career and avoid crushing debt after being falsely accused of sexual assault.
When a devastating ankle injury sidelined Fernau from his beloved wrestling team, he made a mistake while heavily medicated - fraternizing with a freshman cadet. What followed defies belief: months later, after he began dating someone new, came an accusation of sexual assault that threatened everything he'd worked for. Despite text messages clearly showing consent before and satisfaction after their encounter, and despite OSI investigators finding the assault allegation unfounded, Fernau now faces disenrollment and $240,000 in debt while his accuser transferred to Stanford without consequences.
The episode reveals disturbing inconsistencies in how military discipline is administered, with numerous examples of cadets committing similar or worse violations receiving far lighter punishments. Captain Adam DeRito, himself a veteran of a 15-year battle with the Academy over his own case, provides crucial context about potential bias and command influence affecting the proceedings. The conversation raises profound questions about who receives second chances in our military, and whether factors like identity politics might be corrupting the process of justice.
Whether you're connected to military service or simply care about fairness in our institutions, this case demands attention. As Fernau's appeal reaches the Secretary of the Air Force, the fundamental question remains: Should one mistake, immediately self-reported and followed by exemplary conduct, end a promising military career? Listen now and decide for yourself.
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Good evening everybody and welcome to a pop-up special edition of the Stories of Service podcast. I was not going to do a second show for this next week as I am going to Kansas to film with my friend Chase Spears from Finding your Spine podcast. But my friend Adam Dorito brought this case to my attention and it is a travesty. That must be discussed. And before we get started, as I always do, welcome to the Stories of Service podcast. Ordinary People who Do Extraordinary Work. I am the host of Stories of Service, teresa Carpenter. Always do get these conversations started off with a intro from my father, charlie Pickard.
Speaker 2:From the moment we're born and lock eyes with our parents. We are inspiring others by showing up as a vessel of service. We not only help others, we help ourselves. Welcome to SOS. Stories of Service hosted by Teresa Carpenter. Hear from ordinary people from all walks of life who have transformed their communities by performing extraordinary work.
Speaker 1:And today's guest is no different. With that, he has had a lot of courage to speak up in his unofficial off-duty capacity, as we are going to be discussing some issues that sometimes, for the listening audience and for the viewing audience, are difficult to talk about, to include sexual assault, to include allegations, so I do hope you stay with us to hear this story. It is something that needs to be rectified, in my opinion and in the opinion of his advocate, adam Dorito. But before we get started, joseph, pronounce your last name again for me one more time.
Speaker 3:Ferno.
Speaker 1:Ferno Joseph. Joseph Ferno is a wrestler from St Charles, illinois and a former member of the United States Air Force Academy Wrestling Program. His background in athletics instilled him the discipline, resilience and commitment to excellence that have defined his academic and professional journey. At the Air Force Academy, he pursued a degree in behavior science, where his studies emphasize the understanding of human behavior and motivation and leadership. In addition to his core coursework, he completed an extensive number of supplemental classes, reflecting his determination to challenge himself beyond the standard academic requirements. His dedication to both academics and his service culminated in his selection for a highly competitive pre-nursing slot, positioning him to contribute meaningfully in the medical field. This path demonstrates a unique integration of athletics, scholarship and service and reflect not only a commitment to personal growth but a clear dedication to serving others and the foundation that's built upon the academy's regular standards. He continues to embody the values of integrity, perseverance and excellence in the pursuit of his goals.
Speaker 1:Adam Durito needs really no introduction. I'll do my best. I don't have his bio in front of me, but Adam is a previous guest on the Stories of Service podcast. He now serves as a captain in the US Army, just promoted. He previously was also at the US Air Force Academy and for 15 years he has been fighting a battle to restore what was rightfully his at the Academy, and he has now dedicated his time and his efforts to not only helping people like Joe but to helping other veterans receive justice. So there's a lot more to say about Adam, but at this point he is, like I said, here in an advocate capacity to hear Joe's story. So, joe, tell me a little bit about what made you decide to join the Air Force to begin with.
Speaker 3:I joined the Air Force because I was reached out by a couple of wrestling coaches and in the beginning I was always I don't know if I want to join the Air Force. I had a bunch of family and the Army and Marines. I was like, oh, that's the real military. But then they said Air Force is the cush life. So I was like, oh, that's the real military. But then they said air force is the cush life. So I couldn't turn that down and I came pursuing d1 wrestling and I love the idea of the security of the academy, knowing that the beginning of my future would be set up.
Speaker 3:My why has since changed a lot since then? For, uh, why I to be in service? Throughout my process at the academy I knew that I wanted to become medical. I know I want to be in the medical realm and I knew, outside of the academy, I'd be saving lives. But I wanted to be saving lives for the people who are putting their life on the line for our country and I want to be the reason that people can come home to their sons and daughters and that country and I want to be the reason that people can come home to their sons and daughters, and that was just something I had a huge passion about and I love it.
Speaker 3:I am now though.
Speaker 1:Nope, nope, I love it. Tell me a little bit about why you got into wrestling. Was wrestling something that you have always had a passion for, something that you grew up doing, and then just to carry that over to the academy?
Speaker 3:So when I was five years old, I was put into every sport. I was in baseball and my parents saw me pick dandelions in the outfield and couldn't throw, could not catch, couldn't run, I have flat feet and I don't know. I just an anxious kid and they just threw me in wrestling and I fell in love with it. I've done it my whole life. I had no life in high school. I went to a high school we were seventh in the country at Montini Catholic High School Great wrestling program. I loved it. It's always been my passion. I ended up having to leave the sport due to injuries. Uh, especially the same injury that um went on during. Why I'm here where I am? Yeah, yep, but uh, I've always loved it. I still do. I joined the combatives club at usava so I can still be somewhat involved. But awesome.
Speaker 3:I love it has always just been my passion and Adam.
Speaker 1:Can you tell me a little bit about how you got involved with this story, like where the beginning of this was and how you met Joe?
Speaker 4:yeah. So for me, you know, getting my commission back at the Air Force Academy was huge and I think they gave a lot of credibility back to my standing at USAPA. And you know, I think a lot of the grad community they think, oh, you're anti-Air Force Academy, you're just trying to take the system down. I mean, I'm trying to take the system down, for sure, but I love the Air Force Academy. It was my dream school. It's where I wanted to go to, even though I decided to become a Marine officer afterwards and then ended up in the Army.
Speaker 4:After whatever happened to me and for those who don't know that story, episode on that. But my main mission after being vindicated is to make sure that what happened to me never happens to anyone ever again. And I have helped hundreds of cadets over the last 15 years. But the biggest problem I get with a lot of the cadets is that I want to remain anonymous. You know I don't want my name out there. I want you to redact all my stuff and you know what happens with their cases. Nothing it because do you need to be vocal? And what I've learned with the Air Force Academy is you need to attack the chain of command who's being unethical and immoral and go with the facts of the case, as brutally honest as they have to be, and you have to get down to the root cause of what is causing all these sexual assault cases or harassment, or misconduct, or false allegations. We need real leadership in the military. We need it now. You know this is what the Secretary of War has dictated. We are now removing commanders, removing people that are causing these issues.
Speaker 4:And when I asked Joe at first, he was a little hesitant when he reached out to me and asked me for help, but I said this I'm like unless you are 100% transparent with me and I can read every piece of evidence on both sides of the case and I can justifiably make a good recommendation and help you out, based upon my legal experience with my case, I'm not going to help you. And he was hesitant. But he came back to me. He gave me every single piece of evidence, every single mistake he made, and that's exactly the kind of accountability I want to see in our future officer corps. I need young lieutenants who can make decisions and admit when they were wrong and move past them. Arnold Schwarzenegger says it's the best that you can't, you know, be successful, you can't be a change maker unless you're going to break some of the rules. I'm not agreeing like hey. I made my mistakes when I was a cadet. Too right, I'm an idiot. I didn't do everything correctly there. But here I am still today as a commissioned officer and people trust me to make those decisions.
Speaker 4:I see that in Joe and I know where his case is going If we don't act now and act immediately. He needs help and we need to lay the facts out, as brutal as they may be, and be honest about this. But Joe is exactly the type of officer I want to serve under my command and my platoon, even though he made the decision to stay in the Air Force. I want to become the Army now. I'm a little biased, obviously, but we need people who have that dedication of service, can willingly make mistakes, own up to that, move past it. But what has happened to him by his chain of command is illegal. I have went through the casework on it and it needs to be made public and the secretary of the air force needs to be immediately made aware of the situation to give Joe his life back or, at a minimum, at least give him a shot of being a commissioned officer.
Speaker 1:All right. So with that, we're just going to get right into it, because that's why we're here tonight, that's why we called this pop-up podcast, and I'm going to start with you, joe, and tell me a little bit about.
Speaker 3:if you can, please set the scene for your junior year and where you were when you met the accuser. So, beginning of my junior year, first day of practice, I came in wrestled a new freshman stamped my ankle. First day of practice is brutal. I was wrestling the best I've ever wrestled a new freshman uh, snapped my ankle. Uh, first day of practice is brutal. I was wrestling the best I've ever wrestled. I was so excited for the year and I went into doctors and they said you're out for the year for sure. It's going to take a long time to get back to the level you were wrestling. And I was struggling with that. That was really hard news to hear. I was struggling with that. That was really hard news to hear. And I was about two weeks into it. I was at parents weekend off base. All my friends were going out having fun.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And I was just with my mom at an RV.
Speaker 2:that RV- Yep, and that was me.
Speaker 3:Yep Depressed as can be, just taking painkillers and popping nicotine at the same time, just sitting in there with my mom hating life. I have never been more depressed. I've never struggled as bad as I was then, because I built my whole life around wrestling.
Speaker 1:And for our listening audience. This is a picture of Joe laid up. He's got a big, I would say almost like a cast around his right foot, just kind of laid up and just not obviously in a position where you can do your sport anymore.
Speaker 4:Really, he's on the train to Zimbabwe, as we like to say here in the army. So he's laying there on Zins and and heavy painkillers Yep, OK, so you're.
Speaker 1:You're basically just laid up recovering.
Speaker 3:Okay, so I was there. I went on Tinder and I was. I had always told people I never want to get with an Academy cadet. I never want to date someone who would do a military. I always wanted to date someone who would support me on like from a civilian side. So even when I came to people and told them about that, they couldn't believe it because? So I went on Tinder? Sure, because I didn't want to meet any of the people around me. Right Matched with this one girl and I don't know. I wasn't matching with many people that weekend and she just gave me attention that I was looking for sure and then she found I found out that she was a freshman at the academy.
Speaker 3:So obviously, way against the rules and we even talked about it. I was like this is a bad idea. Should we do it? Should we not do it? Inviting her over.
Speaker 1:I was like and the evidence uh, by the way, substantiates everything that you're saying, that this was the kinds of conversations that were going on yes, yep and uh.
Speaker 3:So I invited her over. I was like I have, I'm losing everything right now in my head. I was like it doesn't matter. I wasn't thinking about the academy or the rules, like I brought it up, and I was just like screw it mentality. I'm an impulsive person, so it was just a really bad idea. That night happened. She came over. We ended up hanging out till five in the morning. We ended up hanging out by the fire pit, came inside. Things escalated to the point where we had sex at night, which we talked about it even before she came over. I was like hey, like what are we doing tonight? How far are we going? She was like, oh, there's not too far. And then just one thing led to another. I was pretty out of it, but I just remember things just escalating pretty quickly and um, yeah, and then afterwards we uh, there was no and I just want to clear.
Speaker 1:I want want to clear, clear the air, for there was never a time where she said no, there was never a time where she uh indicated that there was no consent, correct, not?
Speaker 3:once.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and just to help you out there, joe, I just want to say I have the text messages pulled up here, uh, and you asked me what do you? You know cause you asked you know. What do you know Because you asked for consent. You were a teal rope guy and, like I've always been kind of against teal ropes, I've had incidents with bad teal ropes in the past, but I think you're one of the good ones, because you even said you know what is your intentions of this evening. And you said, and she said pretend to play the guessing game until we end up making out. And then you ask are there any limitations? No, there, I'm not afraid of being clear.
Speaker 4:So she expressly stated that she would make consent. She gave her intentions. She even said afterwards, when you guys had intercourse, we went way too far, lol, it was worth it, though I don't regret last night. Honestly, I wouldn't change a thing about it. And then you even said that she kind of hurt you because, like I said, you were on narcotics at the time. You were just laying there. She took all the action. She aggressively grabbed you and, you know, performed uh actions on you and then you even had to tell her. Hey, next time, like I need to remind you to take it easy on my injury yeah, you guys made a joke about that in the text messages.
Speaker 4:I remember that she made her intentions clear before she even got there. She took an uber to go find you. You did not. I hate the whole like argument of cadets using command influence over each other. You're a launch, but you're all between the ages of 18 and 22. Uh, I don't want to hear about it like and right now, as we're talking, right now, there are cadets fraternizing and having sex and drinking in the dorms as we're talking right now. Uh, you know what I mean. This happens all the time. Nobody wants to talk about it. They're acting like you're this one in a million person and that you're a terrible person. That's not accurate. That is not how the academies work. So, just to be clear, she made clear consent, she made the moves on you, she told you what she intended to do and she physically got a ride and spent her money to go find you while you were laid up on narcotics. I just want to make sure that's absolutely clear to the audience, to the audience.
Speaker 1:So right, and here, just to paint the stage even further, this is where you were. I mean, this is what you had been doing up to this point. Is your whole life was this sport and your academics, and then suddenly that's not what you have anymore. Am I correct? Like it's just such a change from where you were? And for the listening audience, we just showed a picture of him in his wrestling uniform. So this was this whole path that you had planned and you're in a place where you're vulnerable, and a lot of times people don't want to talk about that, but that's usually when these kinds of things happen, is when you're kind of in a vulnerable state. Would you agree, joe?
Speaker 3:Yes, ma'am, after we ended up having sex, she proceeded to trauma dump on me because she's insane for a solid 45 minutes about how her family was like, abusive, how she's been she's. She has physical vulnerability because she's had people in the past who's abused her, and I started to think I was like it's parents weekend. Her family's visiting all the way from Illinois and she is leaving them to come hang out with me In the middle of the night, in the middle of the night, let alone. My mom was 10 feet away from me when everything occurred.
Speaker 3:In an RV. In an RV, my mom was 10 feet away and she's saying like oh, I gave up fighting, I yelled out.
Speaker 1:I mean and I I'm gonna paint the picture, joe, just be from the because I I used to be kind of like the crazy girl. I would have never accused somebody, but what it was is that she wanted you to be with her and she was going to do whatever she could to get you. And then, once she had sex, all of a sudden it hits her like oh shit, what am I going to do to keep this guy? Because Because I've already given him the goods, so to speak. So I'm I'm emotional about this, because this is something that I maybe wasn't ready for, but I did it anyway. And now it's like, oh God.
Speaker 1:And so I can remember myself doing that, because I used I've never been very transparent with the audience that I used to be very promiscuous and it was one of those things where I would do this very quickly with somebody that I didn't know very well, and then all of a sudden it would hit me that and that's what I think she was doing that trauma dumping was like oh no, and I'm not trying to justify it or stand up for her, I'm just trying to explain to the audience how this happens. So she does all this and you're probably like oh, oh, shit, this person is, is is really a little bit much for me, and maybe this I mean, what were you thinking at the time when she said all that stuff to you?
Speaker 3:I've always been someone.
Speaker 3:I care a lot about people, my mom deals with her own like mental health sometimes and I've always been there for her a lot, so I've gotten to experience that. So I just kind of took that stance. I was like kind of just trying to be there for the person, sure, and then in the back of my head the entire time I'm like why am I doing this, why am I doing this, why am I doing this? But it wasn't about me at the time. I was just trying to help her you're just trying to comfort her and this was while she was still at your house that evening, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, that she was like this. Okay, so you come for her, yeah go ahead.
Speaker 3:We talk for three, four hours, gets to about five in the morning. I know my mom's gonna wake up and just see us laying in the bed, so I was like I can't have that. So she tries to get an Uber home. It didn't work and then I pull up my Uber and ended up getting her a ride back and she Venmo's me money for the Uber. She pays me 75 bucks for a $30 Uber and the caption on it was the driver said we should get hitched and to clarify.
Speaker 4:I did see these text messages. They are real. This is not made up, Right?
Speaker 1:So at this point she's still happy, like she's still at a place. I mean, at this present point everything is. Oh, you guys had an encounter. She got a little emotional, but things are okay. And then tell me what happens after that.
Speaker 3:So then I knew that I could not continue the relationship because I knew if it ever got found out at the Academy I would be in a lot of trouble, and I didn't want that one mistake to define everything I've worked so hard for All the other things you've worked for Yep.
Speaker 3:So I slowly broke it off. After she told me all those crazy things and she was like pretty crazy about me. I just slowly, over two, three weeks, was like telling her how it was a bad idea how I could talk to her after the year was over because it would no longer be frat. I was just trying to like calm the situation yeah, you're trying to de-escalate yeah, de-escalate everything.
Speaker 3:and it got to the point where we met in my car and I basically said, like this isn't going to work, I'm going to call you at the end of the year.
Speaker 1:And what? How did she react to that? The car thing.
Speaker 3:She dang. That was seven, eight months ago. I remember that she wanted to talk to me face to face. I remember we drove around base for about an hour and then it was her saying how badly she wanted to be with me kind of deal.
Speaker 2:And I was.
Speaker 3:I was like I don't want to hurt your feelings, but this isn't going to work, kind of deal, Kind of just trying to lay it down for her and then me saying that I would reach out to her at the end of the year was kind of I feel like the thing I was able to use to break it off.
Speaker 1:Because you gave her something. Yeah, I'm going to tell you the truth. Like my, my, I mean, this is so similar to things that I used to do, so I, I gosh. It's just like you gave her something to hang on to so that she wouldn't freak out in the car, and because she probably would have if you had said look, I'm sorry, I don't want to see you ever again. If you had said that, she probably would have just broke down crying hysterically in your car.
Speaker 4:I mean that's what she stated in her sworn statement. And her sworn statement she said she yelled and was aggressive and said I never wanted to see you again and I was finally rid of my rapist. You know what I mean? Like, this is what she said in her sworn statement to air force OSI and that is not accurate. That is not what happened.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the car incident go ahead. Go ahead, joe.
Speaker 3:And then we get four, four or five months down the line. I walk into my pizza and I found the love of my life. I'm still dating her to this day. I'm planning to ask a big question soon. And it was all great. I was like I found the one, didn't even think about that girl for months and I started posting. I went public I have a public Instagram page, not anymore Mistake and then I posted my current girlfriend all over my social media. Sure, yep. And that was over Thanksgiving break. According to my report, it says that the investigation was opened right after Thanksgiving break. That's convenient.
Speaker 3:Let alone it's like her commander, said that the other cadet, the accuser, said that she was completely normal until Thanksgiving break and then came back wanting to file a report Joe, is that because you posted a picture of you and your new girlfriend and she was jealous?
Speaker 4:I can't imagine that would be insinuated whatsoever.
Speaker 3:It's a crazy coincidence, is what I have to say.
Speaker 1:So you must've been shocked when this initial investigation was started Absolutely shocked. Oops, it looks like my camera's unplugged, but you guys can still hear me, right? Yeah?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I can All right.
Speaker 1:Okay, no worries, I will find my other camera, but let's go back to you, I'll go.
Speaker 3:I'll go full screen on you, joe, so you were probably just shocked at this point that, oh my gosh, I was two months into uh, dating my current girlfriend, and I remember my commander was on maternity leave, so it was a different commander that was in office and she was. One morning I was going to class february 4th and I was pulled down to OSI. I would say you have to go somewhere, grabbed all my stuff. I had no idea. My favorite people? Yeah, I don't. I'm not the type of person to.
Speaker 4:Did you have to go down to the basement and walk down the stairs with a little silver sign on the bottom of it? Yeah, yeah, good old Air Force OSI building.
Speaker 3:So first I'm thinking did I cheat on anything? Cause that's usually how that goes and I'm not the person to cheat, I'm not the person to really bend the rules. So I was so lost at first I was like what could this possibly be? I know exactly how you feel. And then I get pulled down and it all hit me. I was like oh, I'm going to OSI. As soon as I was told that I said it was her. I knew exactly. And yeah, they stole. I was kept down there for about seven hours.
Speaker 4:Yep.
Speaker 3:They first put me in a room. Nothing in there there, just a couch and two chairs, and I was tweaking because I knew I'd be to the point where I am now, and this was 8 months ago and they made you sit there for a while too, and no one came in the room, right? So yeah, I was in there for probably a couple hours before someone came in. They just let me freak out yep.
Speaker 3:And then they come in, try asking to be my friend, asking me questions, and then they're like oh, by the way, you're being accused of sexual assault and I had been told that my phone was taken, my ipad was taken. I still have not gotten these back, even though it was a false claim Because it's evidence for 10 to 20 years they searched through my entire room, they took an extra iPad from my room and they took a camera of mine. Never gotten any of these back and searched through everything possible.
Speaker 1:This is crazy. This is like such a violation of due process protections to the fact that this has been and that's the long story short that we will drive towards is that all of these charges eventually were dropped. I mean nothing and the investigation just stood for itself. So, and I definitely want to always give credit where credit is due, and this is probably going to sound strange, but kudos to the Air Force for not charging you, Because there's a lot of people who I interview who do get charged on something like this, even with no evidence. So kudos.
Speaker 4:I was charged Okay. But you were, but it was unfounded, though Unfounded. It was unfounded, correct yeah.
Speaker 3:So I was told, I was told that I was under arrest. They made me take all my fingerprints. A mug shot, nice. They took a photo of every tattoo I had. I had one, but uh, yeah, it was basically like I was under arrest at least they have couches now.
Speaker 4:When I was, there was just a metal chair and a metal desk, so I guess they've improved the accommodations for ruining kids lives. So good on you, osi, for for making taxpayer dollars more to the benefit. But here's the thing, and just to back your story up, I reviewed all of your extracted files of every single text message, everything from your iPhone and your phone and everything else. You had nothing in there, right? And everything that you've said is validated by all those text messages and that data that was pulled and, like I said, and I think Teresa theresa's gonna agree, I will give it to us. Yeah, they had to charge you, they had to play the game, they had to do this whole thing they had to do it.
Speaker 1:I mean even after there are true cases.
Speaker 4:And even after all of that, even osi agreed that the statement of sexual assault and harassment or rape was unfounded.
Speaker 1:So that's not only unfounded, but there were text messages that after the encounter showed and backed up your story, and so there was never an investigation about whether or not the accuser made a false claim, and that's what. That's what I think would have needed to come next is why wasn't there at least an investigation like, okay, I get it if you can't maybe prove it, even though there are all those text messages where it was very obvious that it was consensual. But why not? Did you ever ask? I'm just curious, joe, from your perspective. Did you ever ask osi like, hey, since you dropped the case because you could see in all my text messages that it was consensual, why aren't we going after her for a false official statement or for a false claim? Did you ever ask that question?
Speaker 3:I didn't ever ask. I was just told by my own AMT that she thought it was messed up how the other cadet just got to leave no consequence after reading the report who told you that the AM what after?
Speaker 1:reading the report. Who told you that the AM what?
Speaker 3:My AMT. What is it Academy?
Speaker 4:Military Trainer, that's the senior enlisted person in control of the cadet squadron Gotcha gotcha.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's the next part of the story is? Well, let's talk a little bit about the accuser. And just for the listening audience and for the viewing audience, I will not say the name of the accuser. And it's not because I don't think that somebody who accuses somebody with what I believe is a false accusation should not be named. It's because we sadly live in a litigious society where I'm not going to have someone come after me if I can help it for defamation or libel and even though I could fight this case and I believe that it would stand on its merits, unfortunately we live in a society that people will also lodge baseless complaints against average citizens and then average citizens are forced to play lawfare, and I would rather not play lawfare. But I will say this what is something that we found as we were researching this accuser that we found very interesting in light of what, what is taking place, even culturally, within our society? And Adam, do you want to take that or Joe, do you want to take it? Either one of you.
Speaker 4:I'll start it off because I think Joe, you know he can placate to this is that.
Speaker 4:OK let's be honest. Like I said, I reviewed all the evidence. I read all 400 pages of every single text message, every single official statement, everything that was pulled. 400 pages of every single text message, every single official statement, everything that was pulled. This woman strategically designed a story over several months and then made sure she distributed it to all her family and friends. Then she made a 40-minute audio recording, distributed that to her family and friends so that way when OSI conducted the investigation, she would have 10 to 20 witnesses that would all say the same story. Gee, that sounds familiar. It almost sounds like that happened to me, where you had five people tell the same story and, because they all corroborate a story that they hear from this one person, even though it's not true, they use that as the evidence against them. In addition to that, this cadet was admitted under the previous presidential administration and she has been very public about her advocacy for the transgender community. Right, she identifies as Z Zers.
Speaker 1:I think I said that correctly. This is a podcast that we found uh dated from around June of 2021. We both listened to this podcast myself and. Adam and uh she identifies Teresa.
Speaker 4:I just want to read this because it's it's my favorite thing I've read all day today. She identifies as a non-binary, neurodivergent, indian American first gen citizen, citizen, survivor activist, leader, lifelong Chicagoan who works to create a better world every day for the lgbtq plus flocks, mental health and trauma survivors and people of color, through education, action and spreading hope. She is cur or she's. Er is currently working on starting her own zur podcast, transcend, about young trans success stories. Dms for any more information. No, I did not dm you, but I did listen to the entire podcast. This person, this person, clearly had severe mental health issues and gender dysphoria prior to even being accepted at the united states air force academy. And one thing I need to ask you, joe did this z zur ever tell you what they identified as when they were engaging in sexual activity with you prior, or let you know who they were at any time?
Speaker 3:I did not know any of this and never would have guessed, until months later when someone told me yes, yes, and this is unfortunate.
Speaker 4:This is not being honest about who this person is and, like I said, I saw how she built the narrative. Every narrative that she wrote was extremely insinuating. You even said that the superintendent read those words back to you and only read her statement and not yours. And, to be fair, when I first read her statement I was like put Joe in jail and crucify him. Oh yeah, it was. It was very well, it was bad. It was bad as an officer. I sat there and went.
Speaker 4:If this is true, this kid needs to go to jail for a very long time. I'll be honest. If I think you screwed up, you should go to jail. But then I read all the evidence and everything that you wrote and I sat there and went wow, she spent time crafting this narrative, distributing the narrative and then sending out an audio message to her narrative and, to be fair, some of her friends even said I have no idea why this zur sent me this 40 minute audio file about her case when I don't even know what's going on. So she clearly had a plan. She clearly orchestrated this over months. She's a very intelligent person. She has like a 3.8 GPA.
Speaker 1:She's not an idiot.
Speaker 4:She said she has a godlike complex and she said, as a quote she has a godlike complex that she's untouchable because she belongs to this self-identified trans community where they can do no wrong and they can identify whoever as as they want. So I think you know, joe, like I said, legally your case holds a lot of water. There is a lot of things where you were on heavy narcotics when you could not consent. That needs to be clarified. Right, you did make a mistake. You made a bad decision. You need to go do class pride tours and push-ups. In my opinion, that's what I'll sit there and watch you do every single one myself. I'll go there, put a chair there and I'll blow a whistle every time you walk in a circle, because I think that part you made a mistake. You're an idiot, right, but you want. You know what. You owned up to it and even after all that you were still under heavy narcotics and under the law, under UCMJ, you could not legally consent. Right, you were in a bad state of mind, you could not decide what you want to do legally. She was not, she was not under the influence of drugs and she willingly drove herself there.
Speaker 4:In addition to that, there's a whole host of things of unlawful command influence and on top of that, she made serious false official statements. She did not and was not held accountable by OSI or her entire chain of command. So, as a cadet, a former uh, so-called grad, you violated the honor code. We will not lie, steal, cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does, and she did. You did not lie, you were forthright and honest. You didn't even have the risk of probation at this point, and so that's.
Speaker 4:What's tragic is that she was allowed to resign because she was so traumatized by being raped by you, apparently, that she was allowed to attend stanford university with no commitment, even though she's a freshman. I understand you don't own a commitment, but she was allowed to attend stanford university with no commitment, even though she's a freshman. I understand you don't own a commitment, but she was allowed to go to another ivy league, extremely expensive school and move on with her life after making a false rape accusation, which is a crime in this country, not just federally but also under the ucmj. And now is imposing a 240 000 debt on you, ruining your life, when you're just a man who made a stupid, simple mistake, who wants to serve this country and be a nurse and continue to serve despite making mistakes, and, like I said, you're the kind of guy I want as a lieutenant and there needs to be some accountability for this person. 100%.
Speaker 1:And Adam, I'm going to turn this over to you too, because there's going to be people that are going to say, well, he did violate the honor code, he did violate fraternization, and I think that you did a little research in some of your, in the petition that you drew up, and I'd like you to talk a little bit about the precedence of what he committed in comparison to some of the other missing. Yeah, that's a great point, ok.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and just to clarify, he did not violate the honor code.
Speaker 2:I want to cut a very serious thing at the Air Force Academy no-transcript ruined over fraternization.
Speaker 4:It's not really a thing, even major commanders, don't? We just get moved command and you know, you and I both know that goes on right. But let's talk about case precedent with how USAPHA handles these cases. Right, they removed me over things that you know. I had too many demerits. I was never removed because of frat, I was removed because of too many demerits over fake things, over not refusing to take off my Marie Court Eagle Open Anchor Great Made that rule up and I've been fighting it ever since. Right, but Joe is in an interesting time at the academy. There was recently the entire united states air force academy soccer team was found under investigation for sexual assault and hazing the entire division one team and they were all forced to sign non-disclosure agreements to not talk to the media about it and they were allowed to graduate and continue with some probationary measures in place and that was multiple cadets involved. They were allowed to walk.
Speaker 4:Uh, there's another case of freshmen hazing a freshman right and they were allowed to commute to walk. There's another case right you can go back to mcmail. Sorry, us versus mcmail. There was a cadet during my time who I reported she was in a sexual relationship with a married senior enlisted man who was married with children, and they didn't take me seriously. Then she continued on her career. They eventually got caught by the end of when she was a senior and they were intending on getting married and he was going to divorce his wife and she was allowed to graduate and she is currently a serving officer in the united states air force and they dishonorably discharged him and ruined his life, even though they willingly engaged in this for over five years and were intending on getting married right.
Speaker 4:So, like I said, it's one thing if the Air Force Academy and the superintendent want to take the rules and apply those rules to everybody in every case, no matter what, and hold the standard, that's one thing. But they don't. They are selective on the cadets that they choose to punish, the amount of punishment, how they categorize those punishments, and they are treating Joe extremely unjust in this case and there's a disparity and an inequity in the punishment. That's being done and this needs to be made elevated to the secretary of war. Slash the secretary of the air force immediately, because we cannot allow our current leadership, uh, in the military to continue to disparity. Uh, you know, distribute these cases on how they feel and how the political climate is, because that's what they want to do to make themselves look better and protect the chain of command. And another thing people understand is jags. Their only job sorry, all the jags out there I know I have a lot of friends who are jags, including in my unit your only job is to protect the chain of command, right? What? The kind of legal representation that joe has been offered and given is an absolute joke. Right, their only job is to make sure that three star and his group commander and his air officer commanding do not be held accountable.
Speaker 4:They convinced him to write a sap story of an emotional appeal of like just say you're sorry and you promise you'll never do it again. That's not going to work. It is not going to work. You can send a 50 page reply, write an entire new harry potter novel series to the secretary of the air force and no one's going to read it. What? What happens is that jo Joe has grounds to counter, sue for defamation of character and embarrass the United States Air Force Academy and the United States Air Force.
Speaker 4:That's not what we want. That is not what we want. We want Joe to make sure that he serves his punishment. He deserves some kind of punishment and even if they decide that, hey, maybe USOP is not for you, he should be 100% allowed to commission through another source as a. As a second choice, my first choice is to dismiss uh everything and let him serve cadet punishments. Number two is let him pursue rotc. Number three if you really want to play the game, let him serve his time out enlisted. Right, but there is no way in hell that joe should ever have to pay back 240 000 for admitting to make a minor mistake when he was a very young man, especially against a person who broke the law, utilized his intercourse inabilities while he was under narcotics and then she was allowed to walk scot-free. I think that needs to be addressed. There needs to be equity of treatment, there needs to be fairness, and that is your job as an officer in the military.
Speaker 1:If.
Speaker 3:I can add on to that.
Speaker 1:Sure Go ahead.
Speaker 3:Obviously they always talk about at USAFA. You need to have a pattern of record or something like that, with a lot of bad things get kicked out.
Speaker 3:I just said this is the only thing on my record. I had nothing but positive things. After I was pulled down to OSI I went straight to my chain of command and I said I did something that is under the considered disenrollment. So there's a category of things where it's like if you commit this offense you will be considered for disenrollment. So there's a category of things where it's like if you commit this offense you will be considered for disenrollment. They always said it to me that it was presumptive. But in the AFI 51201, it says consider disenrollment. So I just had this one thing one night, short-lived, outside of chain of command reaches every DAFI retention factor. I went straight to my chain of command, said IFI retention factor. I went straight to my chain of command, said I did something.
Speaker 3:I'm going to get in a lot of trouble. What do I have to do to prove that I belong here, that I should be able to stay here, because I knew it was going to get to this kind of level? Eight months, the past eight months, all I have done. I have gone off four hours of sleep. I have done over a hundred, over a hundred hours in volunteering off base, on base. I got a thousand of these form tens which are like people saying, hey, you're doing really good work. I also there's the AFAF foundation. I took that on and I raised the most money out of the entire cadet wing. I mentored our freshmen and our squad. To show that my mistake does not define me, I raised my grades from a 2.9 to a 3.6 for two semesters.
Speaker 1:I also I that's a laundry list, Joe.
Speaker 3:I mean, I have a whole page.
Speaker 4:Joe, I got. The fact that you ended up all the way as a second class cadet with no demerits is impressive. I got five demerits for sleeping in my room when I was a freshman. I got another 10 for refusing to buy my calculus textbook. Like you know what I mean. I think I got some for launching water balloons at the seniors at the ATM machine in Cyjohn Like you know what I mean. Like I wasn't a perfect kid that, by the means, I had, I tried to have fun when I was there.
Speaker 4:But you, you're, I'm not gonna lie, you're the narb, right? You're the non-athletic, regular person nerd, right? Like you. You, you made a mistake, but you had a clean record up to that and there's, like I said, that wasn't even taken into consideration in your case. You were treated as a criminal. You know that you should get a dishonorable discharge, like all this crazy stuff that is. That is not equitable treatment. And, like, like I said, I think one of the biggest reasons of why they're treating you this way is because this particular cadet belongs to a community that they self-identify as trans and as transgender, and at the time this is a big hot topic. We don't want to offend the transgender people. We want to welcome them with open arms. We want to do X Y Z, and if we go against the transgender person and not the so-called straight white male, right then it's going to put a worse public light on social issues at the United States Air Force Academy.
Speaker 1:This is the problem with this whole DEI. Nonsense is that it just marginalizes these groups even more. When we give special treatment to women, when we give special treatment to somebody's sexual orientation or whatever, whatever identity they belong to, all we're doing is victimizing them, we're oppressing them and we're saying you can't obviously empower yourself, you can't fight for yourself, so we need to give you special treatment, and so it really just hurts the very communities that they're purporting to support. Not to mention, if you bring up transgender in any context on social media, you get bans on your social media, if you even say anything about.
Speaker 1:I don't agree with this ideology. I mean I did want people, all people, to get love, respect, kindness. I don't want any harm, any violence to anybody, but I'm allowed harm any violence to anybody, but I'm allowed, I'm allowed to not agree with this ideology. I'm allowed to think that this ideology was harming, is harming, military readiness, and this is case in point. This case is exactly why this ideology harms military readiness, because there's not a doubt in my mind that this issue of transgender played a part, because now let's peel back the onion even more. This isn't just about this accuser. The chain even was part of this DEI ideology. I don't know if either one of you are comfortable taking on that, but I know you— oh, I'll take it on.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'll take on this. I'll let it start. I'm going to turn this one over to you, okay, yeah, and, like I said, I've tried to serve with transgender troops before. They weren't even allowed to deploy with us because they were considered non-deployable, because they couldn't be provided medications in country even though they were passing PT tests. However, they choose to identify. That's great, you're free.
Speaker 1:You're free in this country.
Speaker 4:Identify as however you want, as an American no-transcript, and people always say well, transgenders don't affect, you know, the community, they're not hurting anybody, you know, let them serve, that's fine. No-transcript branches in multiple different areas where transgender people who identify as transgender are retaliating against other people in order to get what they want. And, like I said, she got a free ride to Stanford, right and. And this cadet is now going to have his life crushed because he refused to date her at the time, right, right and like I said, moving on to this commander is you know you can?
Speaker 1:bring me a little bit about this, because I'm going to I'm going to go ahead now and I can do this Tell us a little about who this is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so this is his group commander. She's now a colonel. This is Colonel Maureen Trujillo, right, and she is a strong, powerful identifies as a Native American officer. That's great. I think that's awesome. Good for you. But she published this in an article in her uniform and in her traditional Indian dress. Native American dress.
Speaker 1:I didn't have those other pictures, but they're also part of that same magazine.
Speaker 4:Yes, they're in the article, it's public information, that's why we're saying it. And she came out and said that you know, men have oppressed women in the system for years and if it wasn't for, you know, Native American warrior women like her, that you know women wouldn't be able to stand up for themselves. Right? And in addition to that, if you look at her background, she served under the by administration as a legislative director in Washington DC under secretary of Air Force at the time, Kendall, who I had major issues with, uh Secretary Kendall, uh with my case when it comes to retaliation. So she was part of that legislative team in the United States Air Force that was constructing policy for transgender integration at our, at our not only our service academies but in our military uh wide right. So you already this is a. In my opinion, this is unlawful command bias, right? Is that you have a a guy on command, on undue command.
Speaker 1:Influence is another UCI case that Darren Lopez and I talk about all the time.
Speaker 4:These kind of senior field grade officer that is obviously biased towards women in the military. That's fine, you can think how you want. Right? Who has identity politics wrapped into her command style? As a native American woman, who has stuck up for the transgender policies in the previous administration under the department of the air force at the Pentagon, as a legislative director, making a decision about this young man's life right now, morally and ethically, I think theresa and I both know that the decision to dismiss him and the review of the evidence should be given to another independent commander who has no idea who he is. Right, because obviously there's going to be a bias towards him. Right? And and people just don't want to be honest about this it's not about how she identifies or whatever she comes from, but there's a perception filter. Right. In a case where a male cadet is accused by a female cadet, she obviously has a gender advocacy lens that could be subconsciously lead her to presume the female cadet's credibility while casting doubt on the male cadet's account.
Speaker 1:The very fact that, like I said, you know, she just left the academy. No consequences, no, nothing. Even though there was no evidence, or I mean the text messages, clearly show clearly clearly consensual, consensual encounter, and so it was just.
Speaker 1:It was just very difficult to read through this case file, and I think that's the problem with so many of these cases, adam and joe is that people don't take the time to read the investigation, or the investigation is written cui all over it and so now nobody can release it to the public and nobody can really read what the evidence is.
Speaker 1:So we're we're left with this he said, he said, she said in court of public opinion, and that's really unfortunate, because if everyone could see the evidence, then everyone can can make this decision and see what is happening, and then we expose the truth we expose what happened? And we're not trying to put this girl in jail, we're not trying to ruin people's lives.
Speaker 1:We're trying to make right a wrong, and that's what happened here is do the right thing, air Force, make right this wrong. And if you want to punish Joe, punish Joe, but don't ruin his entire Air Force career over one mistake. My God, like you said, adam, I've made so many mistakes in the military. I've had a DUI. I've, like I said, I had horrible relationship, poor relationship decisions, I made mistakes in my leadership and I was allowed to recover. That's the whole hallmark of the military is giving people a second chance and giving people the opportunity to demonstrate their potential.
Speaker 1:And so, joe, I just I wish you all the best in this. I'm really sorry this happened to you and I can't believe I took this case and you know, three, four day notice and just kind of dived into it the way that I did. But I just knew, when Adam brought it to me, that it deserved this kind of attention. So I think, from your opinion, as we, as we start to wind down the call, what do you want to see as the outcome from this and what are the next steps?
Speaker 3:start to wind down the call. What do you want to see as the outcome from this and what are the next steps? Well, I'm at the point where I have to write to the SECAF. I had a unanimous decision against me with everyone saying disenroll. Every person before the superintendent said that I should do MRR, which is where I leave the academy, go enlisted and come back. But the superintendent went against all that and said that I should get out of the military and pay monetary recoupment.
Speaker 3:So right now I'm trying to do everything in my power just to stay in service. That's my number one goal. I understand that I made a huge mistake and I tried to make up for it in every way, but they didn't seem to care about any of the things I did. I had a huge bias against me every meeting I went into and now I'm at the point where I'm just hoping I don't have to pay back, first of all because that would affect my life for the next 10, 15 years. Trying to pay that back and I just hope that I can keep the uniform on because, beside everything, I just want to serve Like it means a lot to me and I hope one night doesn't erase my entire opportunity to do that.
Speaker 1:So I'm just trying to fight for that.
Speaker 1:I hope so too, and we're going to keep very close tabs on this and I will make sure to. I'll go full screen just for a second. I'll make sure to keep you guys updated on what ends up happening with this case, because I only take on cases where I believe in my guests and I believe there's credibility in their stories. And I believe there is credibility in this story and I believe we need to have these hard conversations. I know they suck, I know they're hard.
Speaker 1:Every time I have a guest on like this, on a live show, I say, all right, you're going to have to talk about the worst thing that ever happened to you on a live broadcast and we're going to have to try to keep it to under an hour. It's not an easy thing to ask somebody to do. Ask Darren Lopez if he's still on the call. It was not easy for him to do that and you know what he really got it going. I mean, and oh, by the way, it's not easy to talk about the worst thing that happened that is of a sexual nature.
Speaker 1:That is even worse because it's so stigmatized and there's so much shame, and the people that do it, like yourself, joe, I mean, I really just applaud you, especially your age, to do what you did. There's not very many, in fact, probably virtually. In fact, you're the most youngest guest I've ever had on and you are the first student I've ever had on to talk about a whistleblower, first student I've ever had on period but to talk about a whistleblower or a truth teller issue. So I really applaud your courage and I hope that other classmates and others who are facing legal difficulties within these academies and within Interochi or Arati or wherever in the military are looking to you and saying, wow, if he can do it, if he can go on a podcast and tell his story, I can too. Is that what you hope as well by doing this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just. I was very against at first putting my face and name out there, but I'm to the point where I'm so shocked that I've gotten to this point for what I did and how it all came about to. I just want what happened to me to never happen to anyone else.
Speaker 4:And that's my entire mission, joe.
Speaker 4:I mean, that's like I said when I, when I met General Mattis several years ago. He always said you need to allow Marines to make mistakes in order to become proper Marines. Right, you need to allow them to screw up and then go outside and paint the parking lot by hand with a toothbrush. You know, and maybe you need to go outside and repaint the lines for the toothbrush. That's fine, you know. But I think you've learned your lesson. And this is my ask is is you know secretary mink? Uh, you know secaf and undersecretary loehmeyer, who I know? I know we, we've talked about my case. That's great, you know, we can fix my stuff in the future.
Speaker 4:But I would like for you, when you receive this package, uh, and the reply is to take joe's case seriously from an independent perspective of. We have a potential great american young leader who wants to be a lieutenant, who wants to serve this country, who's admitted he's made mistakes and he can 100% recover for it. And I'd put my reputation on the line saying that and I don't say that for anybody right, I've been through this process for 15 years. I don't want to see Joe go through the same thing I've had to do for 15 years. It's not fair, it's not equitable.
Speaker 4:And on top of that, I hope that the commanders at the Air Force Academy who are under your jurisdiction, mr Secretary, are held accountable and that we can make sure that we have the right leaders in place at our great United States Air Force Academy, that we can make the Air Force Academy great again, that we can make it the best.
Speaker 4:It's like I said I love my institution, I love where I graduated from right. But we need the right leadership. We need the right superintendent, the right commandant, we need the right group commanders and we need the right air officer commanders who are not afraid to make the hard decisions, that are not worried about their next PCS billet or their promotion or going back to the squadron and getting the next best billet because they screwed over their cadets and didn't have anything on their record. We need strong leaders to come back to the academy and teach our next generation of young warfighters, because if we don't, I'm going to have to keep my doors open and keep interviewing these cadets for the next 20 years of West Point, and I would like to stop doing that. I would just like to serve side by side, jump out of planes and blow terrorists up. That'd be awesome. Thank, you.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, anything I could be doing to stop having to have these shows, to clean up our due process system and to stop having to talk about this is, is, is a is a step in the right direction and I'll move on to bigger and brighter, greener pastures.
Speaker 1:But I will not stop talking about this issue until it's fixed, and I don't care what social media bans me or says I'm, you know, violating community standards or whatever else they try to do to me so that you guys don't hear these conversations. I'm just going to keep exposing them in the most respectful and professional way possible, because I do know that this is the right thing to do and I believe I'm not a super godly person, but I do believe I've been called to do this work and I will continue to do so until another mission calls my name. But I want to thank both you, joe, and Adam and Adam, you're a warrior yourself for for standing up for Joe the way that you did I did. I'm really in awe of the fact that you reached out to me and I knew that it was my turn and my time to step up to help as well. So, joe, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'll go full screen here in just a moment, but appreciate both of you.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much, Teresa, for giving Joe the time.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I'll meet you guys backstage to say goodbye, but I will go solo layout. Thanks guys, uh for joining us for this, like I said, unexpected call. Appreciate your patience, uh, sticking, sticking with it. Uh.
Speaker 1:Next week I, like I said, I will be going uh on a on a short trip to kansas to meet with my buddy, chase spears. So you've probably been seeing some posts about me and him. We've been both uh speaking uh out and speaking up about transgender ideology, which has not made me a fan of some of the people on the other side, but that's okay. That's what good discussions are all about. And then this Thursday I'll be bringing back on Navy SEAL Bill Brown and we're going to be talking about the New York City Still Swim, some after action on that, as well as about veteran discrimination in the workforce. A lot of you probably don't know that veterans are not a protected class in a lot of civilian organizations and this impacts a lot of us as we retire or we transition. So we need to talk about it, especially our reservists and our guards as well. So with that, I hope you all enjoy the rest of your weekend and, as I always close out these calls, please take care of yourselves. Please take care of each other and bye-bye now.