S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
From the little league coach to the former addict helping those still struggling, hear from people from all walks of life how they show up as a vessel for service and drive for transformational change. Hosted by Theresa Carpenter, a 29-year active duty U.S. naval officer who found service was the path to unlocking trauma and unleashing your inner potential.
S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
Hots&Cots: The App Giving Military a Voice with Rob Evans | S.O.S. #218
When you're a young service member preparing for your first PCS, finding honest information about where you'll live and eat can be nearly impossible. Military barracks and dining facilities remain one of the most significant blind spots in our support system for junior enlisted personnel.
Rob Evans, an Army veteran and software developer, experienced this firsthand during his 12 years of service. After transitioning to civilian life, he noticed something critical was missing: a platform where service members could openly discuss the conditions of their living quarters and dining facilities. This realization, coupled with a 2023 Government Accountability Office report highlighting widespread problems in military housing, sparked the creation of Hots and Cots – an app that's transforming how we address quality of life issues for our troops.
During our conversation, Rob shares powerful stories of service members living with mold-covered ceilings, broken HVAC systems, and unreliable dining options who found their voices through his platform. The app's anonymity feature has proven crucial, allowing personnel to document conditions without fear of retaliation. What began as a simple idea has now collected over a thousand reviews and caught the attention of military leadership at the highest levels – including the Secretary of the Army.
Perhaps most compelling is how Hots and Cots creates accountability where traditional systems have failed. Rob describes instances where installation commanders reached out directly after seeing negative reviews, resulting in immediate fixes to problems that had lingered for months. His recent addition of a leadership dashboard allows vetted military leaders to engage with reviews and address concerns while maintaining user anonymity.
As someone who's witnessed the transformative power of good leadership and proper resources, Rob's mission extends beyond building an app – he's building a bridge between those who serve and those who lead them. His work reminds us that taking care of our service members isn't just about equipment and training but ensuring they have decent places to live and nutritious food to eat.
Ready to see what's happening at military installations nationwide or share your own experience? Download Hots and Cots today and join the movement to improve quality of life for those who serve our country.
Visit my website: https://thehello.llc/THERESACARPENTER
Read my writings on my blog: https://www.theresatapestries.com/
Listen to other episodes on my podcast: https://storiesofservice.buzzsprout.com
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https://www.youtube.com/c/TheresaCarpenter76
Imagine moving to a new duty station and you have never left your home, let alone been to very many places across the United States, and you don't know anything about where you are going to live. You don't know what the building looks like. You don't know what barely the base looks like. You can only go off of what you see online and maybe a couple Google reviews. That could or could not be true, and for the majority of us who have served in the United States military, that was our life. When we would move into a new location, we didn't know if we would have a unexpected roommate which I did, by the way who would bring men home. That was an interesting experience. You wouldn't know what to think because there just wasn't something out there where you could share information and have transparent conversations. But tonight we're going to be talking to the founder of HOTS and COTS, Rob Evans. Rob, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:Good, good Thanks. Thanks for having me on. How are you doing tonight?
Speaker 1:I am doing really well. Thank you so much for agreeing to come on the Stories of Service podcast Ordinary People who Do Extraordinary Work. I am the host of Stories of Service, teresa Carpenter. And to get us started, as I always do, here's an introduction from my father, charlie Pickard.
Speaker 3:From the moment we're born and lock eyes with our parents. We are inspiring others by showing up as a vessel of service. We not only help others, we help ourselves. Welcome to SOS. Stories of Service hosted by Teresa Carpenter. Hear from ordinary people from all walks of life who have transformed their communities by performing extraordinary work.
Speaker 1:And Rob Evans is a Armory veteran software developer and the founder of Hots and Cots, an innovative app created to give service members a voice on the conditions of military housing and dining facilities across all branches. Today, we're going to talk about his own experiences and what inspired him to build a platform that sheds light on serious issues like mold, broken HVAC systems and subpar meals, but also celebrating the installation's doing it right. Since its launch, hotz Kotz has collected over a thousand reviews, drawn the attention of senior military leaders and been featured in national media as a catalyst for greater accountability and transparency. This conversation will divide into some of the challenges of military living conditions, the power of technology to drive change and Rob's mission to improve standards for the men and women who serve our country. Welcome again, rob. Thank you. So, first off, as I always ask all my guests, where were you born and raised and what inspired you to join the Army?
Speaker 2:So I was born in New York and then, like most New Yorkers, we moved to South Florida shortly after, and then, like most New Yorkers, we moved to South Florida shortly after, and I was raised in South Florida. I was there till 2008. And that's when kind of everything crashed down and relocated up to the North Carolina area. What was the second part of the question? Sorry?
Speaker 1:Oh what inspired you to join the army.
Speaker 2:Oh, I didn't know what I was going to be doing in high school. I was in high school and I didn't know what I was going to do after my mom said I could go to college, I could get a job, I can join the military. And that was in 2000, when I enlisted and those were my options and an army recruiter came to the school. We got shuffled into the gymnasium and we had to take the asvab and the recruiter reached out and said hey, what do you think of joining the army reserves? It's just two weekends or two weeks a year, one weekend a month. Um, I was like, okay, sure, I don't know what I'm going to do after high school. So junior year of high school went to basic and then, after my senior year of high school, I finished up AIT and then, actually AIT, I finished my last APFT, or physical fitness test on 9-11.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my class. My final photo was like the day before, so it was a very unnerving, unsure time when everything was happening.
Speaker 2:So yeah that's kind of no real inspiration. My father and my grandfather in the Navy, so I didn't get the message to join the Navy. I decided to kind of go against the grain and join the Army instead of following suit with them. But family being in the military is kind of in my blood. My mom's stepbrother was in the Navy. He was a pilot, so it's kind of sprinkled throughout my family history of military service.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great and it's interesting, because sometimes that's all it takes is just having some familiarity with somebody who has served. Not so much did they encourage you to do it, but at least you knew that it was an option that existed. So you went into the reserves. What was your job in the Army?
Speaker 2:So it was a 42 Alpha. Personnel administration At the time it was a different MOS. They changed the numbers around shortly after I got in. But personnel administration at the time it was, it was a different mos they changed. They changed the numbers around shortly after I got in. But, uh, personnel administration. So I did anything, the paperwork wise, um, folder, personnel wise. And then I, when I deployed with the reserves, I actually was part of the g2, so I was working in the skiff, working on the intel pieces of our kind of our big push into ir.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, so you deployed there.
Speaker 2:I wasn't in Iraq, I was back at Fort Stewart. So the reserve unit I was in was a garrison support unit. So Fort Stewart 3rd ID went forward and then our unit would come in and take over running the base installation. So we would then just kind of plug in wherever MPs, g2, wherever maybe JAG and such.
Speaker 1:I love it. I mean, that's a very important role too, so that the people that could do the job go downrange. And then there's these people that come in and they backfill for the people that are gone, and that's an incredibly important mission. Did you enjoy it?
Speaker 2:I did because I reenlisted in 2009,. Apparently I finished up my six by two contract and then in 2000, 2009, I think I'm pretty sure, no, 2008, maybe, I'm not sure Somewhere in that time. It's all fuzzy now I re-enlisted into North Carolina National Guard and I've shared this story before. But the recruiter, I asked the recruiter just kind of so I can understand and tell my wife like am I going to be deployed? Like what's cause?
Speaker 2:This was during the big push and he was like it's a new unit, it's a new National Guard unit. They're changing over to be a sustainable brigade. You're going to be not going to have to worry about being deployed. So signed the contract, went over to my national guard, my new unit, and two months later I got orders from the army that they were going to reclass me to be a fueler and they were going to change my unit to deploy to Iraq. So then I went forward to Iraq as a fueler, going outside the wire, delivering fuel to the smaller FOBs, forward operating bases, the wire, delivering fuel to the smaller fobs, forward operating bases, delivering fuel and handling bulk fuel.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, that's a. That's a. That's a tough job, I would think it was.
Speaker 2:It was it was stressful. I mean, it was 2009 and it was the kind of the big push. There was a lot of every you'd hear about ieds vs, like all that stuff going down Unit. We replaced the right seat, left seat stuff. We did that unit was hit with IEDs. One of the tankers was hit with an RPG shortly before we rotated in. So it was a very stressful time for sure, especially when you're pulling a tanker full of explosive fuel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly so, wow. And so how long did you stay in the army for that second term?
Speaker 2:that you signed on for. So I did another six years. I was 12 years total and then I had like two years in IRR, so I was 14. But I finished up in 2014, got out um as an E5 and I've been out since um. I've explored different opportunities, maybe kind of going back in the army um, probably most actually recent, as probably like three, two, three months ago. But, uh, some things aren't going to probably work out. We'll see.
Speaker 1:I don't know yeah, um yeah yeah, it's tough. It's tough too to also take that break in service and then decide if. If it's what you want to do and it really all depends on, I think, what they offer you and if it's an offer you can't turn down, great. But if not.
Speaker 1:Then you know that's it's just. It's just the way it is and time to move on. It's interesting because I had definitely periods in my service where you were at like that 10-year mark where I wasn't sure if I was going to keep going or not, and being picked up for an officer program was the clincher for me. I got picked up at the eight-year mark and that was when I knew I was like, okay, well, I'm going to have to go through school and do all these other things, so yeah, I'm definitely gonna make it to 20. I knew at least that much.
Speaker 2:It's tough. You know I miss aspects of it. There's other aspects of it I don't miss. You know it's it changed. The army changed the trajectory of my life. You know my dad worked paycheck to paycheck. We didn't have a great home life. We didn't have a good quality of life I was living. I mean there was times I lived in like four different houses, three different houses on the same block, because we would get evicted. So I mean food wasn't always easily accessible. So I mean the Army gave me skills. It gave me a path to kind of move forward, to not kind of relive that life. Substance abuse is really big in my family and you know and I know that's big in the military. But I think I was able to steer clear of that because of the military and the tools it gave me and I'm very thankful for that. So I don't know where my life would be if I didn't join the military. Honestly, I mean I could still be. I could be in a totally different place. Hots and Cots may not be here.
Speaker 1:Right, it's like the path less traveled. I think about that all the time too. I fought a med board when I was 19 to stay in the Navy and just recently learned that I probably would have qualified for a medical retirement. And so I think about, like if I had known I didn't know anything about VA, disability, any of that stuff, back then, if I had known all that stuff and that I was entitled to all that, would I have fought to stay in the military so hard? Maybe not? That's what's interesting.
Speaker 1:You just never know where life will take you. The fact that you were able to transform your past and make the Navy and the I'm sorry, the Army, something of your present, of your future, is just outstanding. And we have another fellow Army person who's on the call today Mandy Fight. She says go Army. Excited to listen to this one. Rob is doing great things to actually improve quality of life issues for our service members.
Speaker 1:Still need to send him water quality reports for military homes impacted by red hill so yes you may have heard of her, she's the lead red hill whistleblower, so she's a huge fan of you and knew you were coming on tonight.
Speaker 2:So thank you, yeah, um, I've met our paths crossed recently and I've been following her since and a big supporter of what she's been doing as well too. Um, in in that space, um, and I'll keep looking for those reports, mandy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's coming on my show this tuesday, so uh, okay, she may talk about it then we shall see.
Speaker 1:But I'll listen, yeah, yeah, I'm excited to have her back on. She's been on before, but she has some updates to give us, so it'll be wonderful to host her again. So, yeah, I'm excited to have her on. We just spent a good bit of time together this past weekend in New York City for the New York City Seal Swim, and that was amazing. So we might be discussing that too, but anyway. So when you decided to get out of the army, how was the job prospects? Were you scared? How did the transition?
Speaker 2:go. It wasn't bad because I had a job already lined up to be in the National Guard, so it wasn't a problem. Job prospects, if anything, it helped me. Kind of being in National Guard helped me land a job. You know, being in the reserves it gave me. That's where I kind of got into information technology working with computers's, where I kind of got into information technology working with computers and I kind of took on to that. My dad built houses, my mom was a receptionist at a doctor's office, so computers wasn't a really kind of a big thing in my household. So being in the army gave me those skills. I was able to transfer that to my day job and kind of go from there. So job prospects wasn't really kind of a concern. It was my employer was great with me going to my drills and being away, so that wasn't so much of a problem.
Speaker 1:Thankfully, I've heard horror stories. Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm having a pretty smooth transition myself, but I think that's because I prepped for it for a long time and knew that there would be this whole nother future afterwards. So totally understand. So tell me a little bit about what inspired you, or what was the dawn of how HOTS and COTS came about.
Speaker 2:So the government accountability report came in 2023 and I've been involved. When I got out of the national guard, I was still involved with the military through social media and other spaces, um, but then the government accountability report came out. They talked about the army barracks and the conditions they were in um and they were comparing primarily the army, but they also correlated them to different branches, like they also experienced their own challenges with the conditions of the barracks. Um, and I kind of had a moment of there wasn't anything in this space to kind of show the conditions of barracks. And then in conversation we went beyond just the conditions of barracks but there's no tools for junior enlisted to see what their barracks will be like when they're PCSing or they're going to a new duty station, whether that's Army, air Force, whatever, whatever branch you may be in, if you're family or you're accompanied or you're an officer or you're going to go, you have a situation where you can live on post, you have more resources to your disposal, you can see work order history, you can see the layout of your home. Potentially you have a tenant bill of rights as well, and you don't get that if you're going to the barracks. Do they call them barracks in the Navy, they do, okay, so barracks. Or in the Air Force, they call them barracks in the navy, they do, they, okay, so barracks. Or in the air force, they call them dorms.
Speaker 2:You don't have that like. You have the option to maybe deny and not sign form if if you're the air force, from my understanding but if you're in the army you don't. You don't really get that um, just this week I spoke with a soldier who was going to their new duty station and the NCO showed him his room and was like the janitor closet's down the hall. You can clean it if you want, but this is your room. Like that's the soldier's first impression, one of their leadership, two of their installation, and that's like you wouldn't. That's sad, yeah, that's very sad. And like if you're signing for an apartment, you're you're not gonna um, that's not that you're going to get like you're going to have a apartment given to you that's clean and if not, you can just like not take it. But you don't have that option. If you're, if you're a junior enlisted um, you ask, but depending on the nco, they'd be like no right so go kick rocks.
Speaker 2:This is your room, there's the janitor closet. So I wanted to find a way to give those junior enlisted a voice and a platform where they can share their experience whether that's great, a five-star barracks, a five-star dining facility or a one-star barracks and be able to have a resource and a tool that, when you go to PCS, you can say, hey, I'm going to Fort Bragg, what does that installation, what did the barracks look like there? What does the dining facility look like? Or, if I'm going to Norfolk, what did the barracks look like there? So that's kind of what got me into wanting to create Hots and Cots to give those in the barracks and who's going to be living in there to have a voice, to feel like they're being heard.
Speaker 1:I love it. And one person had a question that came up and please feel free to post in the comments your questions, because I always say to my audience that the questions I get in the chat are sometimes better than the questions that I can even ask and says this is awesome, it's great to hold the military accountable, but I wonder whether there'll be any kind of retaliation for posting information on the app. So tell me a little bit about how it works. If somebody did get those you know, crappy, dirty, smelly room and they want to start posting pictures away, I mean, is there a way that these people will now be retaliated against or they'll be discovered through the app?
Speaker 2:So it is anonymous. I left that part out, so the app is anonymous, so you don't have any. It's anonymous as long as you're not providing, like your room number and your name and your leadership which I constantly am moderating the content to make sure there's no OPSEC or personal identifiable information, but there hasn't. There has been some and some folks that have gotten upset, but I haven't heard any major, any sort of retaliation.
Speaker 2:I've heard of mass retaliation because they found out something got posted on Hots and Cots. They didn't like it, so that NCO took it out on everybody and that's unfortunate and that's kind of the problem. That is kind of gets us to this issue where service members will accept the barracks how they are and like, well, this is my life, I'm just going to live in this mold, and that happens because I don't want to come forward, because I'm going to get in trouble for coming forward, and that's kind of how we get in this vicious cycle of you don't have soldiers coming forward to leadership and really telling them the issues. This is why you don't have soldiers submitting work orders or service members submitting work orders. So there has been like mass retaliation, but there't been any retaliation, as far as I know, to an individual.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, good, good. So tell me a little bit about what you see in terms of good to bad Cause, I would say, like even in Google reviews, the reason why we see so many good Google reviews is because the businesses a lot of times will give incentives for people to put reviews or they'll have their friends put reviews, and we all know there's probably I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but there might be uh, I know it's this back in my day and I don't know if it's now the same in the Navy that used to be the culinary specialists where they called them MSs. Back then, I think mess specialists used to run the birthing, I mean the, the, the, the barracks, and I wouldn't think that they would be encouraging people to put positive reviews. Maybe I'm wrong.
Speaker 1:Maybe I'm wrong, but sometimes we probably see more negative reviews and we haven't even gotten into the, the, the dining part of this and I have a lot of questions on that. But let's just stay. On the barracks side Are do you, do you see a lot more housing review and correct me if I'm wrong. Is this just barracks or is this also military housing on base?
Speaker 2:So you can do military housing on it. So I started Hots and Cots with the focus on barracks, but as I was doing this, more more spouses and individuals who were living in housing reached out and like hey, this is not just an issue in barracks and I kind of had an idea that it wasn't just barracks, from just loosely I knew.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean there's lawsuits going on about liberal issues and other things, so of course, and I think there's a lot of great organizations that do a lot of things in that space, but there was still that space like there was nowhere to report things other than the Facebook pages. So I have added an option to mark things as housing if it's a housing review. So long story. The long winded answer is yes, you can also post housing. You just have to mark it that it's a housing review.
Speaker 1:Gotcha? Is there consistently more negative reviews than positive reviews? That you see just in general.
Speaker 2:I do. But there's nothing stopping barracks managers from posting positive reviews. There's nothing stopping leadership from posting positive reviews if there's good barracks I'm being my hots and cots is inclusive to all. So if you're a barracks manager and you have some great looking barracks, I mean post them, right. Yeah, I want, I want to be able to show if you're a barracks manager and you're managing these barracks and they look great, I mean post them. I mean because you're not just then showing the other side, but you're also these barracks and they look great. I mean post them. I mean because you're not just then showing the other side, but you're also providing a resource and a tool for those that are coming to your installation and know what the things are going to be like. So but yes, there's unfortunately more negative. I see a lot of that.
Speaker 1:Right Is the people who are posting. Is it ever is not. Usually the barracks. Are the barracks managers civilianized? I don't even know anymore. Like I said back in my day, it used to be people who were mess specialists, now culinary specialists. That was one of their other duties. Was, was, was, habitation, but I'm not sure how that works across the services.
Speaker 2:It's mixed. I think some of it in the Air Force might be civilians. I think even the Army might have some civilians. But going back to the Government Accountability Report they talked about the barracks, managers aren't fully dedicated to managing the barracks at some of these installations, so it's like an additional duty on top of their, whatever their day job is. So you don't have folks that are actively managing the barracks full-time, unfortunately, at least on the army side.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure how it might be in the navy and the other branches, but it's. It's a tough job. I I know the barracks managers have it hard and that's something I've been pushing for is you know, you need to have somebody dedicated to managing those barracks yes, you do, and walking through and walking through them if they're.
Speaker 2:If the rooms aren't being occupied, then make sure they're still clean, and if they're not clean, then I don't know. Follow whatever process that, whatever the SOP is, whatever the regulation is or the barracks manager handbook says to do in those situations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was, you're reminding me, when I was stationed at Great Lakes and fighting my medical board. That was actually one of my jobs was. I was I worked with the barracks managers and I was one of those barracks petty officers and I stood a watch in the barracks and I think I did that for a good six to eight months and I enjoyed my time. I had good barracks managers and I had a good CS that I worked for and it was instrumental in helping me actually fight my med board, because I started thriving in that, in that position and doing those jobs. So it was, it was a good, it can be a good experience. Unfortunately, like you say, sometimes it isn't and that's and that's a shame. And it is a shame that this isn't a full-time job, because then we get into work orders and when things need to be fixed and when HVAC isn't working or AC or whatever, what have you? So what have you seen? Is that process for trouble calls and tickets and other things.
Speaker 2:It's a broken system. I mean it's a broken system right now. I remember one situation at an Army installation where there was a logbook where you would go log your issues and the barracks manager was supposed to send those issues up. In this case it was broken AC and I think there was I don't know 20 logs in the logbook of the AC not working and it got sent up to Hots and Cots and I posted it on social media and there was nothing being done about it and I, the Sergeant Major, actually reached out from the installation and was like hey, can you get me the information on where this was or where this is happening? And I'll address it. And he did.
Speaker 2:He took care of it, but soldiers aren't submitting work orders and I've seen that also in the Navy. They submit work orders and nothing gets done. Yeah, they just kind of the tickets will automatically get closed. There will be no response from DPW or whoever is managing the work order system. It could be. I can sum this up, as there's no trust in the system to have those issues resolved.
Speaker 1:Right. I can sum this up, as there's no trust in the system to have those issues resolved Right, and it shouldn't take an outside app that's got nothing to do with the military to be. Theary comes to mind, sean Ryan, where certain actions happen because somebody goes outside the lifelines and works with someone like yourself and then something gets resolved, and that's not the way we want to see problems get fixed. It's not.
Speaker 2:You know, there was two weeks ago. I had a report come in an installation was the ceiling was covered in mold and the soldier just accepted it. He's like this is my room, I'm just going to, I'm just going to accept this. And it got reported on Hots and Cots and I think the comment was even something like they're just going to paint over it. And maybe like three hours later I got a call from the installation and maybe like three hours later I got a call from the installation.
Speaker 2:He, the Sergeant Major of the installation, got a hold of my number from a mutual and he's like hey, can you find out where this is and so we can address this, which kind of goes back to the repercussions no-transcript, but as long as they don't feel like they're going to be retaliation. And the soldier came forward, they got the soldier moved and that was it. And that was kind of it. There was no retaliation. The soldier didn't get like a counseling or anything, as far as I know. So I think soldiers want to get issues resolved. The problem is leadership at a higher level aren't aware of these issues and that's where they just don't trust the system. And I think they don't trust the system, but then there's also kind of no checks and balances of what's happening.
Speaker 2:There was a question about Secretary of the Army and how that conversation went and it went well, and something I shared with him was you know what does that satisfaction survey look like for Department of Public Works? On those work orders I go to the dentist or I go to the dentist and within a couple hours I'm getting a text like hey, how is your service Greatest from one to five or whatever Like. Is that being done for Barrick's work orders? And if it is, what does that survey look like? And if it is, what does that survey look like? And if they're getting a customer satisfaction survey, is it being looked at for when it comes time for contract renewal, or looking at the process in and of itself? Because right now I think DPW on HOTS and COTS has a rating of 1.4. I don't ever really hear a great positive experience with Department of Public Works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and we got a couple other people that are chiming in. Mandy is again. Also. The House Armed Service Committee formed a special military quality of life panel in early 2023. Have any of the congressional leaders from that panel reached out to you?
Speaker 2:Not directly. I've had some indirect interactions with them and some of the staffers. Um, not directly, I've had some indirect interactions with them and some of the staffers and I've met with. It was December. I was able to go and meet with some of the members from the panel and it was kind of in passing, and chatted with them for a couple minutes and then once I returned home in the new year I was able to meet with some of their staffers and chat with them. But you know, I think those interactions and the conversations have been well, but I don't know. Yeah, I understand it's. The whole system is just I don't. I don't quite understand why this needs to be a difficult thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, what it is is, it just needs attention, just needs attention, and attention is not being given to those issues other than when there's a nasty news story about one particular issue on one particular base.
Speaker 1:It reminds me of you might've remembered this it's a Navy issue, of course, I know Navy, sometimes more than other services, but it was when I want to say it was the GW, but I can't remember the exact carrier.
Speaker 1:But it was the issue with habitation, when we were in the yards and soldiers or sailors were literally sleeping in their car because they couldn't live in the horrible conditions in the barge or the conditions on the ship, because contractors were in and out, it was loud, it was, there wasn't any ventilation and then they didn't want to sometimes even drive home because they couldn't park anywhere near the ship. So there was that issue. So those are the kinds of issues that get a lot of attention and then we fix that issue for that one ship, but then we don't look at the larger issues that are taking place. And it sounds like that's what's happening here with Hots and Cots, at least on the habitation side, is that we're fixing the one issue that comes up on the app that makes people get a lot of attention, but then there's not this larger fix that is happening because you're still seeing lots of complaints right this hasn't slowed down or anything since you started?
Speaker 2:no, not at all. It's you. You were perfectly described. It's they're doing whack-a-mole with these issues and there's a as of 2020, there's like a 200 billion dollar maintenance deficit, and it doesn't help when maintenance facility maintenance is underfunded, but then also that money is taken and diverted to other areas of whatever that mission may be. And you know people talk about colors of money and different pots of money, and I think that's a very convenient argument when it's when it's when it's in, when it's in their best interest, whatever, whoever the administration is, whatever it is, but you can't keep taking money from facilities maintenance and then expect these issues to get fixed. They're just going to you're just going to.
Speaker 2:They're just going to pile up and this is like an issue that takes on their mental health. Um, uh, depression, substance abuse, I mean, these are things that the government accountability report, the department of uh, department of defense, ig report, talked about. Um, that this, the poor quality of life, does make an impact on on their mental health, and it you can't have a warfighter If you don't have the great mental health space. There's more than just things that go boom yeah to be a warfighter and to be lethal.
Speaker 1:What got you to learn Like how did you know how to do this? Did you just because you had this? You had the training from the military, but did you have to just teach yourself how to build an app?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I did. Well, I wanted to get in software development because of my day job. I wanted to transition. I was more kind of customer support. I was in software development more on a support side of things and I wanted to get into actually the part of writing the code to progress my career and such. So to do that, I just self-taught myself how to write apps and I wrote a bunch of different apps prior to Hots and Cots. And writing an app is just one aspect to software development. The other thing is getting users to trust you, the maintenance of the app. There's a lot that comes with app development and that was kind of a learning path as well.
Speaker 2:Sure and then so then Hots and Cots came about and it kind of just stuck. I honestly didn't think it would stick around as long as it has and get the attention it did. I figured like it would make a splash and then maybe six months it would kind of die down. But two years now it'll be two years October and I'm still here and I'm making progress in the sense that I'm making an impact on people's lives and I'm helping service members across different branches to get a better quality of life.
Speaker 1:I love it. I absolutely love it. Was there anything? I mean, I heard in your story that you definitely grew up in an environment that may not have been as stable as possible, and do you think that played a part in you wanting to take on this problem set?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and I think also I like helping people. You know, everyone joins the military for different reasons and when I look back on why I reenlisted into the National Guard, was I I'm sure I saw the commercial like I don't know if I did but like part of the appeal to National Guard is you're helping your community, you're helping your community, you're you're helping the people you live with. And that didn't really work out with me going to Iraq, but I wanted, I like helping people and making an impact on people's lives, and I think that's where I find myself with Hots and Cots, like I'm making an impact, I'm helping, I'm helping people and I like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you definitely are. So let's let's transition to the dining side. So when and where did you get the idea for the name Hots and Cots, like where did that come from?
Speaker 2:in the military. So Hots and Cots is kind of spitball with some yeah, with some friends and folks and that's how we came about with Hots and Cots. So if you're not sure what Hots and Cots means, that's, that's what it means. You're supposed. You're supposed to be guaranteed three Hots and a Cot. As I'm finding out, not everyone's getting three Hots in the military and sometimes a Cot is debatable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. So tell me a little bit about what the experience has been like on the dining facility side. So for those of you who are not military, but most of the people who watch this podcast, you have some military affiliation. Every military base has its own chow hall or dining facility. And tell me a little bit about what that has been like to manage that, because I also have another, you know nasty Graham story. I think it was the Theodore Roosevelt.
Speaker 1:When it pulled into Guam during the COVID outbreak, there were lots of people who were not given the best meals and food and nasty looking food on in a picture is never a good thing and I think it was some just moldy or white bread sandwiches that were wet and cheese and that did not go over. And in a gym that where people were, of course, not social distancing and that went over pretty poorly in the press and I believe, was that in the letter that got leaked that Captain Crozier wrote were instrumental in moving people to hotel rooms that at first the governor was saying no to. So again, this is sometimes how problems get solved is through the media and through outside sources. So tell me a little bit about what it has been like for you to see some of the issues on the dining side.
Speaker 2:It's mixed. You know the ratings on dining side is higher than what I see on the cot side, but you know I've seen it all from uncooked chicken to food, just no food available. There was a big picture that went around in probably November where soldiers showed up at the dining facility and it was just Mima beans and toast that they had. Now, as that story developed, they needed to wait like another 15, 20 minutes and there would have been some more food, but the soldier that's what the soldier had. And you know soldiers don't always have them. Service members don't always have the most time available for food. Sometimes they work night shift. So I have seen a lot of things on the food side, some really great things. Um, I've seen the army. I don't know about how it is on the navy, but there has been a big push on the kiosks and there's been a lot of times where soldiers show up to the kiosk and there is no food available what is the kiosk um.
Speaker 2:Think of gas station food.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, we call it the speed line on a Navy ship. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yep. So if you like, go to an airport. It's kind of like that prepackaged food that's already prepared. Yep, not the best. You know. There's a regulation, there's a joint regulation I think it's 40-25 where it outlines how many calories you're supposed to get based on your age, your job, your sex. And we found that the kiosks don't really meet those standards and at times dining facilities aren't even meeting those standards. You know, I've seen undersized portions of protein and there was a review that came in and somebody made an excellent point was I get this small portion of protein but then I can have unlimited cake and bread?
Speaker 1:Oh man, that pisses me off, especially when we're dealing with an obesity problem and we're dealing with problems with people not being able to meet the physical fitness standard. But then we go to these dining facilities and it's just, like you said, bread, junk food, desserts, that that is unsat processed foods.
Speaker 2:It's just so. I'll share the story of fort carson. Um, and I don't want to. Fort carson had a lot of struggles. They were one of the installations that ran out of food at the kiosks. They were the ones with food not always readily available at the dining facilities.
Speaker 2:And through working with with hot, like they worked with me, like I met with Fort Carson's PAO one of their PAOs and they looked at the reviews and I'm sure I wasn't the only, like the only point of data point that they use to make improvements.
Speaker 2:But you know, know, I see it in the data and the reviews that come in on hots and cots and I saw the scores and average ratings go up for the meals. So hots and cots, I feel like, made an impact there. You know they were getting a lot of one stars, two stars, really bad press, and they turned that around and their uh cg just made a post, um, I think, like three months ago, talking about how they're going to start opening dining facilities again on the weekends and they made all these adjustments and you see that in the reviews, you see that in the food and I think that's the power that I see with Hots and Cots, that soldiers have a place, they can go, they can post their reviews anonymously. And then it's on leadership if they want to listen and take that. And then it's on leadership if they want to listen and take that data and use it to make improvements or not.
Speaker 1:Right, and they should be. I mean, I think this is a, like you say, a morale issue, and it's a mental health issue. It's a readiness issue, it's a lethality issue. People who are being treated well will say good things and will work harder and do more because of the fact that they're being treated with respect and they're being treated fairly, and so that's why this is such an important resource. Where do you see this going Like now that you've had this for two years? You never expected it to go past six months. What do you see kind of the future for it and where do you want to take it?
Speaker 2:So I've wanted. Since I've launched Hots and Cots, I've always made it available free for users and for the leaders in the military. Like I'm not trying to paywall this data from the Army or the Navy, I've been very open and transparent that I'm willing to work with the Army and the different branches on utilizing HOTS and COTS as a system to collect data on quality of life.
Speaker 1:Someone asked about this. Have you done any kinds of analytics on the data and wonder about the money dedicated, whether, yeah, so people are, yeah, that you have. You have a.
Speaker 2:You have a treasure trove now of data for the last two years all across military installations so I could go and pull up an installation, norfolk or um scofield barracks, and I could see what those reviews are like with the data. How sold with the sediment is like, um, how are our service members viewing that installation? Um, cause, right now I don't, I don't know if the army or the different branches have this type of data for quality of life. They have. They have these different systems. You know does. Does the Navy have ice? Uh?
Speaker 1:we do. We do have ice complaints and each command does a equal opportunity survey or a command survey every year and that may or may not, I don't know ask questions about dining facilities and the housing, but I can't recall. Off the top of my head it's been so many years since I've taken one, if that's something that is included. But as far as I know, like you say, if they're not even tracking work orders, something tells me that there might not be a centralized tracking system that's doing this.
Speaker 2:And with ICE you can't even upload media, you can't upload images. So you have this disconnect of leaders who may and I know this who think that issues aren't that bad. So with ICE you can't submit photos or videos. So, let's say, a serviceman or a sailor submits a review, submits something there, a comment about mold. Well, it's on to that person reviewing the comment, which may be weeks later, to say say is it really mold or is it just dirt? I don't know, we'll look at it later and it gets thrown aside.
Speaker 2:But when you include a picture of a ceiling full of mold, there's there's no question like, okay, that that's mold, and right, it's tangible, it's very tangible. Um, but also, you're working with 18, 19 year olds and ICE doesn't have an app. They're not, it's not mobile friendly, it's, and I and I have I've asked this to leaders go to ICE and try to leave a review, try to post something or try to navigate that, and if you're over those barracks or dining facility, you may not see that information for weeks if you have access to it, right, yeah, so to answer your question, I would love to continue. I want to work closer with the military. I've met with Secretary of the Army. You know I've proposed this. There's legal issues, there's legal legality things they need to work around. I don't know what that looks like, but there's got to be a path forward.
Speaker 1:Right, I feel like you could create something like at the DOD level that would do what you're doing and not in a commercial standpoint, like I feel, like you, undersecretary for Personal and Readiness, looking at you, I mean honestly, like, like. To me, this is a no-brainer that you should be taking a DoD contract and creating something that is an app and that is a DoD app that people could use and upload videos and photos and this would, I think, help a lot of people and then on the back end, there could be those analytics that are that are fed directly to DoD. So this is a fascinating topic and, like you said, I really hope that the House Armed Services Committee, who has a special military quality of life panel, I really do hope that they take a look at this podcast even or other pod many, because, gosh, rob, you've been on like how many shows have you been on? I did some some googling of you before the show and I was like, holy crap, he's been on a lot of podcasts yeah, I've, I've, I've lost.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I've lost count how many um I have been on a lot and I've. Every time I, I, I put that, I put the offer out there like I've, I'm here, I want to work with you, um, like I'm not trying to, um, I have a solution. I'm not trying to sit in the sidelines and just throw shade Like I have a solution. I want to work with you like open a contract. Like open a contract and I mean I'll go apply for it.
Speaker 2:I have the proper codes and needs to do that Um yeah, and somebody mentioned like I imagine they've got filtered data, so I don't know about the other branches, but I know for a fact that right now the Army does not have that data, to the extent of knowing like the mold situation in barracks.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:From at the high levels, maybe at like the company level. They might have some data on work orders, but for those that make a decision at the Pentagon and such, they don't. At least on the army side they don't have that detailed data.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's what I love about what you're doing, rob. The best kind of advocates and the best kind of change agents are the ones that are not throwing stones from the sidelines. They're not. They're not the ones who are saying I hate the military, oh, down with everything, because that's not going to get you anywhere.
Speaker 2:No, somebody I think was an audience. He was like you. There's a difference between complaining and then voicing your issues and coming with a solution. Yeah, complaining and then voicing your issues and coming with a solution. So I've voiced the problems, I've voiced what's also what's working. But I have a solution just to kind of address these issues, because the Government Accountability Report talked it was an NDA line item to start tracking the conditions of barracks. So it was in FY25 NDA. So it's there, there's a line item for this, and Hudson Cots is doing I'm doing exactly that. I'm tracking conditions of your barracks and your dining facilities.
Speaker 1:Right, and I'd be very curious if anyone has investigated or done that particular line item and who is in charge of that line item and how? Where does that line item stand today? Those are all, all beautiful questions that I can't get an answer for.
Speaker 2:Of those that I have conversations with at different, various levels, nobody can give me an answer on that.
Speaker 1:Yes, unfortunately, sometimes laws get passed and there's a difference between laws being passed and laws being acted upon and and enforced, and so sometimes it takes a couple times and a little bit more, you know, gentle, reminders for those things to be to be to be worked. But I love what you're doing, rob, and I see this guest getting bigger and bigger. And not only have you done podcasts, I mean, you've done also, I believe, some media as well, from Pots and Cots, correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, there was a big article that came out with Task and Purpose in January. I think about how service members are turning to social media. I was militarycom, I was in some of their articles NY Post I think it's nbc so I've I've been in various platforms of the media. Um, and, yeah, I, and I know they're, they're. I mean I met with the secretary of the army so he knows about hots and cots. Um, and I know the secretary navy knows I don't know about air force or um, the coast marines. Yeah, what about, yeah, air force marines?
Speaker 1:and coast guard. Yeah, air Force Marines and Coast Guard. No communication yet, but there's always hope. There's always hope.
Speaker 1:So I see it as this is just going to continue to grow, because you've got the right intentions and you've got the right attitude on how to fix it and where this needs to go to be fixed. So I love it and I thank you so much for bringing this app to our military audience and bringing it to the Stories of Service podcast, and I hope that more people will check it out and more people in the most senior positions of military leadership will give this issue the attention that it deserves. Is there anything that I didn't cover down on or I didn't ask you that you'd like to share?
Speaker 2:Yes, actually I want to talk about real quick about the leadership dashboard we just released. So you know we talked about Hots and Cots being a place for service members to kind of rate their situation, and that was my intent when I started. And it wasn't until a commander at an installation reached out like, hey, we got this issue addressed, but can we update the post? And very early on I found ways to kind of close the loop on issues, because service members are going to go to social media and post things, but there's no closed loop on that situation, whatever that may be.
Speaker 2:So recently we launched a leadership dashboard where we verified and vetted certain leaders that have good intentions to kind of try to weed out toxic leaders, because we know they're there and they can engage with these reviews in a moderated way and still everyone remain anonymous. So this is just another step in trying to find solutions to these issues. So it's great and this and it works like this is a negative review comes in, a vetted leader who's at that installation can see that review and they can respond. And then myself or whoever's on the Hots and Cots team would vet that comment to make sure it's not something like this isn't our issue, or you're a bad service member or something negative.
Speaker 2:And it's an actionable comment and it's something to bring a solution and we can improve it or we can reject it based on the comment. So it's just another step in hots and of us moving forward to try to improve the quality of life and get service members into a better situation.
Speaker 1:I love it. Yeah, no, that's great and that's just shows the evolution of the app and how you're taking it into new places and making it more accessible and more user-friendly and, again, not just a bitching platform, which is not helpful for any of us. So I love it. It's focused on finding solutions, which is what helpful for any of us. So I love it. It's focused on finding solutions, which is what we all need. So, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and being so responsive when I reached out to do this show, because these are important issues and you're doing something in the military space that, like I say, nobody else is doing, and I think that ought to be commended. So, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. Thank you for having me on.
Speaker 1:Awesome, awesome. Well, I'm going to meet you backstage to say goodbye and then I'm going to go full screen, but again, thank you so much for coming on. The stories of service podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks all.
Speaker 1:All right, guys. That's a wrap for Thursday night. Next week, I once again have two podcasts. I was only going to do one, but then, of course, saw Mandy fight in New York this past weekend and I wanted to have her back on. I've been wanting to have her on. She's got some updates to share, not only about Red Hill, but about the Warrior Games and some other things that she's into. And then on Thursday, I'm having the host of the podcast Permission to Speak Freely. He is a domo. He's been hosting that show almost, I think, as long as I've had my show maybe longer and he is doing wonderful things in the Navy podcast space, primarily geared towards the enlisted sailors, and it is an amazing show. I always get good nuggets of wisdom from him, and he's a wonderful filmmaker too, so just can't wait to have him on. As I always end these calls, I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening. Please take care of yourselves, take care of each other and bye-bye now.