S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
From the little league coach to the former addict helping those still struggling, hear from people from all walks of life how they show up as a vessel for service and drive for transformational change. Hosted by Theresa Carpenter, a 29-year active duty U.S. naval officer who found service was the path to unlocking trauma and unleashing your inner potential.
S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
Guilty Until Proven Innocent | Arvis Owens - S.O.S. #205
đď¸Episode Title: "Guilty Until Proven Innocent: When the Military Justice System Fails"
Episode Summary:
The U.S. military justice system was designed to uphold discipline and integrityâbut what happens when it becomes a tool for political agendas instead of truth?
In this powerful and eye-opening episode, former Navy Commander Arvis Owens shares his harrowing experience of being falsely accused of sexual assault. What unfolds is a disturbing look at a system that, under pressure to show progress on sexual assault cases, has sacrificed due process and fairness in pursuit of conviction rates.
Key Topics Discussed:
â˘The rise of metrics-based justice since 2009âand why conviction rates became the new gold standard,
â˘Suppressed exculpatory evidence, blocked video proof, and commanders incentivized to convict,
â˘The militaryâs "titling" process that brands service members for lifeâeven after acquittal,
â˘The absence of innocence projects or conviction review units in military courts,
â˘The deep personal and professional toll on the falsely accused,
â˘Why real justice means protecting the innocent and believing victims.
This conversation is not about discrediting survivorsâit's about protecting the integrity of the justice system for everyone. When the balance tips too far in one direction, both victims and the falsely accused pay the price.
đ Listen nowâand ask yourself:
If this happened to someone you love, wouldnât you want a path to clear their name?
You donât want to miss this episode â itâs raw, real, and deeply important. đď¸
Read and rate his book - https://a.co/d/3FazLeK
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Welcome everyone to the Stories of Service podcast, and you might see that I'm on a little bit early today and I'm actually full screen. I'm not in a split screen with a guest, and that is for a reason. Today's episode was going to be an interview with Darren Lopez. Darren Lopez is the author of the Sailor Spy vs UCI and we're going to be talking a little bit about this book tonight and an opportunity to to actually get an autographed copy of his book. However, uh it the last day or so, we came to the conclusion that it just wasn't the right time for darren to share his story, especially in a venue that's as intimate and as, uh, you can't change what you say as a live, that's as intimate and as you can't change what you say as a live podcast. And this isn't because he's uncredible, this isn't because he's not telling the truth. This is because it is so difficult to talk about what he believes, and what I do believe is a false accusation, and that is because of, unfortunately, the way that our society is set up to be so litigious.
Speaker 1:Many people want to tell their story, many people want to speak up and speak out, but if you mention somebody's name, if you mention anything, you will always run the risk of a legal battle A legal battle that you might win, but a legal battle nevertheless, and many of us do not want to be mired in legal battles.
Speaker 1:So, while I have no doubt in my mind that one day Darren Lopez will share his story and between now and then, I do hope you pick up his book, I do hope you read this. I believe that everything he says is 100% the truth and I stand by that. He says is 100% the truth and I stand by that, and I do believe that at some point, we will have a larger conversation about this issue of false accusations, because they do occur. And today, what I'm doing instead is I'm having another guest on somebody who's been very involved in this movement and has also been a leader in this movement, and he's going to talk about the back story of how this happened and how undue command influence permeated throughout the military and unfortunately led to what we do believe is probably the most horrific miscarriage of justice that hurts true victims and also, of course, hurts people who are falsely accused. So I'm now going to bring in Arvis Owens. Arvis, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm good. Hi, Teresa. How's the audience doing? I hope they're good.
Speaker 1:I hope they're doing well. I hope they're buckled in for a very hard conversation. I do want to say, as I said in the show notes, that if this is something that will trigger you, it's going to be too painful to listen to or to watch. Please know now that we're going to be talking about sexual assault, we're going to be talking about allegations, we're going to be talking about the criminal justice system. So please bear in mind when you're watching, to please watch responsibly. I also want to say, as I say with all of my shows, this is in my off-duty, unofficial capacity. The views and the opinions that are expressed on the Stories of Service podcast are those of the guest and those of the host and not on behalf of any other entity. So I'm going to tell you guys a little bit about Arvis here in a second. But welcome to the Stories of Service podcast. Ordinary people who do extraordinary work. I am the host of Stories of Service, teresa Carpenter. And to get us started, as I always do, here's an intro from my father, charlie Pickard.
Speaker 3:From the moment we're born and lock eyes with our parents. We are inspiring others by showing up as a vessel of service. We not only help others, we help ourselves. Welcome to SOS. Stories of Service hosted by Teresa Carpenter. Hear from ordinary people from all walks of life who have transformed their communities by performing extraordinary work.
Speaker 1:Who have transformed their communities by performing extraordinary work and let me say it is an act of service to come forward and to speak up and speak out about this. And if, during this call, after this call or any time, you would like to come on the Stories of Service podcast and share your story and you and I come together and we decide that you're a good fit for the show, please reach out to me. I have five copies of Darren's's book, autographed by him, that I will send out to you as a way of me saying thank you for agreeing to tell your story and speak up about this issue, specifically it. Since I started the podcast, I have wanted to cover this issue, but but I've been afraid to, and today will be the day that I drop that fear and we have this conversation. So Arvis Owens is a 1995 graduate of the United States Naval Academy and served as a supply officer in the United States Navy.
Speaker 1:He rose to the rank of commander before he was falsely accused and wrongly convicted of sexual assault. Wrongly convicted of sexual assault. Today he is an outspoken advocate for other men but, as we discussed, even women also falsely accused and wrongly convicted of sexual assault and domestic violence in the military, while he believes that true victims deserve justice. He believes that people who are falsely accused and also victims deserve justice as well. And to date, no innocence project or conviction integrity unit covers military members. And yet every civilian in every state and territory of this country has this type of protection. Welcome again, arvis.
Speaker 2:Thank you, teresa, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. First off, I'd like my audience to get to know you a little bit. Where were you born and raised and what made you decide to join the Navy?
Speaker 2:So I was born in Lafayette, louisiana. My family's originally from a very small place called Opelousas, louisiana, and I was raised in a place called Beaumont, Texas. It's where I call home and from an early age I joined Naval Junior ROTC. In high school. In ninth grade I took that instead of typing and I fell in love with the military and the Navy itself and from that point it ignited my passion about going to the United States Naval Academy. So that's how that happened.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow. So what did you think of the Academy? Was it sort of something that you were used to like, that kind of discipline and regimen, or was it kind of a wake-up call?
Speaker 2:It was a very big wake-up call. I think. If you don't personally know someone who's gone through it or have a family member, you have no idea. You have. You know what you read about and some things you hear. But it was a big wake-up call. It was definitely a lot more intense than I thought it was gonna be, but, yes, great place to be.
Speaker 1:And then you commissioned a Supply Corps officer. So did you go to like a DDG as a supply corps officer for your first ship, or what was sort of your career path? I did an OPD.
Speaker 2:I was a junior supply guy. I did a supply officer tour on a DDG out of Norfolk, virginia it was the McFall, so I did the DDG. So I was stationed in Japan at one point and that DDG was in Norfolk here in Virginia. So I got to see the world a little bit. And you know, when I joined it was not just a job, it was an adventure, which I think is a very good slogan and a very good kind of synopsis of what the Navy can provide.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And did you intend, before we get into your case, to make the Navy a career?
Speaker 2:Of course, yes, it's all I'd ever wanted to do my whole life.
Speaker 1:And tell me a little bit about what it was like. You made it all the way up to 05. So obviously you had some hard knocks along the way. But what was your career like leading up to this point?
Speaker 2:So I would tell you initially a fallen angel, I was in flight school I wanted to be a fighter pilot but me landing on the carrier didn't turn out so well. That's when I transitioned to supply, went to Japan, came back stationed in various parts, got married. I will tell you I enjoyed being a supply officer, learning the business of the Navy and contributing where you can. I was at the Pentagon. I did a Pentagon tour. I got to go to graduate school and do various tours. The DDG was very rewarding that department head tour. Things were going really, really well. And then I want to take accountability for what I did do. I'm a married guy. This was with a coworker. I shouldn't have done it. And she and I engage in some mutually consensual contact. And she then falsely accused and said hey, you sexually assaulted me. We went to court, martial.
Speaker 1:Can you back up a little bit? And I want to ask what? Was there anything that led to you thinking that this might turn out this way, Like that she might say that this event occurred Like was there a fight between you? Was there something, some tension, like you wouldn't leave your wife, or something along those?
Speaker 2:lines. She did ask about what this meant long-term, and it didn't mean anything long-term and I know she was a little upset about that and so I think that was part of it. And then it came out later that there were financial aspects. Is the type of attorney she went to? She filed a civil lawsuit against everybody but me. She wanted money from the military and money from the command where we were located, and so it came out that it was a combination of factors, which is what our motivation seemed to be. Were you in a supervisory position over her? I was not. Came out that it was a combination of factors, which is what our motivation seemed to be Was were you in a supervisory position over her?
Speaker 1:I?
Speaker 2:was not, I was not. We had a big boss and there were two deputies. She worked for the big boss. The big boss testified to that. Now she tried to say, oh, he was my boss, even though I didn't sign her performance appraisals, I didn't approve her leave, I'd never even tasked her and so. But she kept, because that's how you win the money. You say, hey, he's my boss and I. An interesting fact about that is my lawyer asked hey, did he threaten you? Well, no, did he offer you anything? No, did he use force? Did he use coercion? She said no to all of that, and then she came back a second time as well. So that's some of the background, but there's a lot more to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think that's the part that people struggle with so much and the part that I really want to come out with and say people will always say, well, why would somebody ever have the motivation to put themselves through this if it wasn't true?
Speaker 2:So let me I could tell you a little bit of a history about why it started and many of the incentives that the military put in place that attracted people to do this.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I'm going to put you on full screen, just so that the audience can really take this in.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I want to read you two quotes first, to kind of capture what I'm saying first, if that's okay.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:So the first quote is from at the time. He's since retired Colonel Vance Spath. He was the chief trial judge of the Air Force. He said you know, dot, dot, dot, some things before. We can't figure out how to get consent these days, and now it's not enough to get consent to have sex. And he said that it's in the record of trial of an Air Force former OSI agent. He's an investigator, robert Andrew Condon. And then I'll read you a second quote.
Speaker 1:What does that even mean it is not enough to get consent. What else can you do other than get consent?
Speaker 2:That's exactly the point, so I want to wrap your audience's mind around this. This is the chief trial judge. Is is what he's saying is and I'll get to that is there was tremendous pressure on the military to get convictions, regardless of what the evidence showed. You recall the Me Too movement?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So there was an Air Force case in Europe of a lieutenant colonel who was accused and convicted of rape. The lieutenant general, in his case, overturned the findings of that, which was something convening authorities had the power of overturned the findings of that, which was something convening authorities had the power of that ignited a firestorm in Congress. You had Senator Kristen Gillibrand at the time, president Obama. They said we're going to stamp out sexual assaults. So around the 2009 timeframe there was a survey and they looked at that survey and they asked a bunch of questions about whether you've been harassed or assaulted. And then they projected that survey out and said well, if this is true of the whole force, even though we looked at the snapshot, then we have a problem. And the metrics they use, teresa, were prosecutions and convictions. They wanted to see more prosecutions and more convictions and so they wanted to see results, to the point where the Senate Armed Services Committee was looking at a commander's record for promotion of their record in sex assault cases.
Speaker 1:So how do you know this? How do you that's the other thing I was going to ask you as I was researching this how do you know that people's promotions were dependent upon if they had convictions under their command?
Speaker 2:I've had people come to me, commanders. I had a former JAG who came to me who was a service judge advocate, or I'm sorry, she supported the commander. She's an SJA, a staff judge advocate. She supported the commander and she told me, as well as others and again, people can find that out, you just have to go and it was the Senate Armed Services Committee were looking at their records. In fact I had a neighbor who came to me Air Force gentlemen that in the Air Force and the Army on officer reports we call them fitness reports, as you know, in the Navy the last line even said what your status was with your support of sexual harassment, sexual assault, command client. And so I want your audience to think about this. So you know that Congress is looking at you for promotion and if you send every case, regardless of the merits, to court-martial, well guess what? Then you're a supporter and then you let the court set it out.
Speaker 2:But what most people don't understand, teresa, is that at that time the commander gets to pick the jury pool. We call them a panel, but they get to cherry-pick who sits on it and it's not unanimous At the time it was two-thirds and then they also do small sizes. So if you ask an attorney hey, what does small size juries get you? More convictions? Hey, the fact that you don't have a unanimous verdict what does that get you? More convictions? The fact that you get to pick the pool of people that you choose from to be in the jury, what does that get you? That gets you more convictions.
Speaker 2:And before I get too far, I want to read that second quote from another trial judge, this one from the Marine Corps, then Lieutenant Colonel Robert G Palmer, to a panel of young lawyers the defendant is guilty. We wouldn't be at this stage if he wasn't guilty. It is your job to prove he is guilty. You need to take him down, and that's before the person's ever been to court-martial. So I want your audience to imagine for a second that your loved one is falsely accused and you know with absolute certainty, based on evidence, based on everything, that that's the case. And there is a system designed to get convictions so commanders can show that they're tough on sexual assault.
Speaker 1:So what happened before Obama Cause? That's when I heard this all came about. So was there was there more due process? Have you guys looked into that? Like was there more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, at that time there was more due process. In fact I had a retired NCIS agent 40-year agent tell me he believes this stems from tailhook and I don't know if you're old enough to remember like 1991 timeframe. You know tailhook's a conference that you know carrier aviators go to and there were some allegations of some sexual improprieties. Do you know how many officers were court-martialing convicted based on tailhooking?
Speaker 1:I did not.
Speaker 2:Zero, and so you had a lot of Congress people and senators who were upset that they didn't get convictions. And so now fast forward to the 2009-2010,. There have always been cases that have been questionably pushed through the system in the military, but 2009-2010, specifically, sexual assault and later domestic violence became a focus of interest for Congress and then, as a result, the military.
Speaker 1:Congress and then, as a result, the military. And what I think is so unfortunate about this, arvis, as I started the call, is that you know, I've had several people on my podcast who've been impacted by sexual assault or who have had a sexual incident within their background or have been a victim of a legitimate victim, and I think that it is unfortunate that I hear about these cases, because I have heard the other side too, where people felt that they didn't get the justice that they deserved within this, within this system, and so it is just shocking to me that so many of these cases out there exist, so many of these cases out there exist, and then when you read, as I did with Darren's case, you read the transcript and you see that there was just zero evidence.
Speaker 1:Right and there was a constantly changing story, and just not remembering anything of the incident, I mean just not anything that that showed anything other than a consensual encounter.
Speaker 2:And I want to say our heart goes out to true victims. And so what we're saying is we want an independent review. We don't want you to just believe what I'm saying. We want an independent finder of fact to look at these cases objectively and rule on our behalf. And I will use just a little bit of Darren's story because again I am here kind of representing him. It's he had a date with a young lady. She had three drinks in five hours, and so what does science tell us about processing drinks? It's about one an hour. So you have a scheduled date. You have three drinks in five hours. You're texting friends, taking selfies, and then you're getting into the vehicle. His vehicle is Jeep and you're still texting, laughing and joking.
Speaker 2:You go back to his apartment, you navigate three plus flights of stairs alone and unassisted, and you attempt to have intercourse, not once, but twice. It's in the book. De'aaron had some performance issues that day, not sure why, but he did try and use a condom responsibly. You go to sleep together. The next morning. You wake up, you ask to take a shower and you ask the man you were with to wash your clothes. He does so. You get out the shower in a towel, you start to kiss him, take off the towel and initiate sex again. He still has some performance problems. And then he calls you a cab. You leave, you go do your thing. And then you say, well, I had memory loss. So the judge goes rightly, so let's order a toxicology report to see what kind of things are in your system.
Speaker 1:Right to see if she'd been drugged.
Speaker 2:Right Zero drugs in your system, so you're not intoxicated. You haven't had drugs you haven't been drugged.
Speaker 1:You haven't had a date rape. You haven't had a date rape.
Speaker 2:Three attempts at sex. Does that sound like sexual assault to you and your audience? No, I would tell you. At the time of Darren's conviction, the military had a policy of one drink. Teresa, are you familiar with that?
Speaker 1:No, oh, one drink and you can't consent.
Speaker 2:One drink and you can't consent. But it only applied to the person getting penetrated. If you're getting penetrated and you have one drink, you can't consent. But if you're the other party and you do, you can't. So I want your audience to think about an anniversary. You go out and you have a glass of champagne. You can't drink. I mean you can't consent. Now you can drive legally in any state in the country after one drink, but you can't consent your anniversary, your birthday, one drink. That was their policy and they could arbitrarily say well, that person said just with their word, this was no longer consensual. You had the Commandant of the Marine Corps, that General Amos, who spoke about more convictions in front of lawyers and things like that. You had Vice Admiral Winifield Jr, vice Chair of the Joint Chiefs, write a letter to a member of the Senate saying we are getting convictions in military sex assault cases that civilian police will not take.
Speaker 1:Right Almost bragging that they were able to take these cases because the civilian authorities were determining that there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute, and the affidavit as well Correct.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you about the affidavit. So there was a case, keith Berry, navy SEAL, who was falsely accused around the same time I was. He goes to court-martial, he gets found guilty, he gets sentenced to prison and even more, with his story, they put Keith in solitary confinement because in the military prison they want you to sign a confession that you did it. Regardless if you did it or not, they want you to sign a confession saying you did and they will withhold services from you. In Keith's case it was medical attention. This guy's a decorated SEAL and they're withholding medical from him. They also will not allow you to take courses that can get you paroled. Now if you pay for them yourself, they won't acknowledge them. You have to sign the confession to get them to pay so that they'll allow it.
Speaker 2:So in Keith's case he reached out to his convening authority, rear Admiral Lorge, two-star Navy Admiral, and he writes an affidavit, which I provided to you, where he said he was worried about pressure from the President Obama and Senator Gillibrand, regardless of the merits of the case and how it would impact the Navy, of the merits of the case and how it would impact the Navy. He also called out Teresa, the then head of the JAG Corps of the Navy and her deputy. I mean, he called them out to say look, they pressured me and guess what Keith shared with me when there was a hearing. They both threw each other under the bus and then the military sealed that hearing because they didn't want anybody else to get it. Keith tried to get it to me and that's how he got me the affidavit.
Speaker 1:And the thing is, Arvis, is that you come with receipts. So everything that you've talked about, if my audience wants more information or they want to see any of these documents, reach out to Arvis. He'll send them over to you.
Speaker 1:This is no no secret, these are not classified documents. And once you start to see the totality of this and you see case after case after case where this has happened, then you start to say to yourself oh my god, there's people probably sitting in the brig that are probably still in the brig right now. There there are.
Speaker 2:There are, in fact, you want to hear receipts. I'm going to say names tonight as well, so I'm going to give you examples Army, navy, air Force, marines, coast Guard. So I'm going to mention Matthew Lepart, also Air Force. It was his ex-wife. They had a custody dispute. He tape recorded legally the sexual encounter and she knew it was taped. The military would not allow him to use that as evidence in his trial and he is sitting in prison now and they won't let him out. So they have the video evidence of the sexual encounter. And she's on top of him, by the way, right, she's doing a little shimmy, doing some other stuff and they know about it and they refuse to let him use it.
Speaker 2:Ok, we got Rick Livingston, army. His wife is discovered having an affair. He brings it up. She accuses him of sexual assault. She also accuses him of domestic violence. But what she doesn't say is she had a pistol to his head and he did disarm her, right. But the courts just disavowed that part. And then, on top of that, she forged his name on a check and cashed it and the family discovered it, turned her into the army and they said well, you got the money back. And the father said wait, if I rob a bank, but then you catch me and I give the money back, do I not get arrested?
Speaker 2:Let me tell you about Marine Corps, where there's a gentleman I work with and I didn't talk to him about using his name today. He had DNA proof. Teresa, that said it wasn't him. They withheld it, convicted him. It took five years and they said, oops, we made a mistake. Ask me what they did to his wife and his newborn child while he was in prison. Ask me what they did to him when he got out and they took money from him and he still hasn't gotten it back. They didn't want him on base. Gotten it back, they didn't want him on base.
Speaker 2:We've had men commit suicide, be unemployed, underemployed, living in the basements of their parents' homes. Every month in this country, someone on the sex offender registry is killed. These men are placed there. So I've told you Air Force. I've told you Army. I've told you Marine Corps. Let me tell you Navy. You've got Darren. I just told you his story and you've heard mine. And we, marine Corps. Let me tell you Navy. You've got Darren, I just told you his story and you've heard mine. And we have others. Let me tell you Coast Guard. His name is Jerry Jerry.
Speaker 2:He doesn't get accused until he files for divorce from his now ex-wife. She says in her own testimony we'll give it to you Again, as Teresa said, we have the receipts, we'll share them with you. Or she says well, you know what In my mind, I didn't want to do it and I kind of just went along as part of marital sex. I never said no, I never said I just had sex with him. But he should have known what I was thinking. Right, army, navy, air Force, marines, coast Guard and Teresa, as you mentioned, I've done a lot of interviews. Those interviews rose to the attention of then Deputy Secretary of Defense, kathleen Hicks, under the Biden administration. She reached out to Mr James Thomas. He has a show called Tell it Like it Is.
Speaker 1:Talk to me. I've seen it. Yep, I've seen it on YouTube.
Speaker 2:Where she talked about doing a study on false allegations and she would release it to the public. What do you?
Speaker 1:think happens when she finished that study. Nobody ever saw it.
Speaker 2:Nobody ever saw it. She refused to release it.
Speaker 1:Carolyn, she reached out. Let's go back to Kathleen Hicks, because this was just recently. So the Tell it Like it Is podcast. You were on that like within, I think, the last year, and what was really interesting about that one too is there was a retired Navy chief that was also on the Tell it Like it Is podcast and she just shared I don't know if she was a paralegal, I'm not sure or she worked in like the sexual assault office or so you're right, she's a YN, a yeoman.
Speaker 2:She was YNC. When she retired she did a tour as a paralegal out, I believe it's in the San Diego area. Yes, so she shared with me. In one year in one Navy region she saw 500 cases of false sex assault allegations and convictions in one year. That's one year, one service, one region. The Navy has 10 regions. She brought it to her chain of command and she was released and to go with that, she was the number one E6 at the time.
Speaker 2:She did that interview for us and they were upset about it. Oh, I bet she is such a brave soul for coming forward. She also shared with me she was on a Navy ship as well and she heard three women conspiring and birthing to falsely accuse a man so they could get off the ship. She goes to the command management equal opportunity person they won't help. She goes to the JAG Corps they won't help. She goes to the IG they won't help. It says it's your one word against their three. The young man was convicted. Gee, they won't help. It says it's your one word against their three. The young man was convicted. She felt a certain way about that. Every time we do one of these interviews Teresa, I have people who come forward, who saw it, experienced it, they knew people.
Speaker 1:It's just so sad and I don't understand and I know we talked about this earlier why people like Candace Owen or Megyn Kelly I mean, megyn Kelly is a wonderful reporter and has this huge reach and she's talking about the Duke lacrosse case, she's talking about Justin Baldoni, so she understands this issue, she understands that you can't believe all women, you just can't. You can't believe all men, you just can't believe all people. And I really don't understand what is stopping and we talked about this yesterday what is stopping these major media outlets? And let's first talk about that, the major media outlets. And then I just don't understand the major podcasters, but let's talk about first the major media outlets. Why do you think outlets such as Politico? Or I'm trying to think of an event War Horse?
Speaker 2:War Horse. Yeah, reach out to War Horse, war Horse. Usa Today, wall Street, militarycom, militarycom I live near the Washington Post Reached out to them for years New York Times, new York Times. Here's my belief DOD spends billions with a B in advertising because they care about the four R's Recruiting, retention, reputation and resources. So all of those ads help draw people to the military, and so if you're a major news source and you get those dollars, are you going to bite the hand that feeds?
Speaker 2:That's why I believe you don't see it, and you're right, teresa. A lot of the American public are like well Arbus. If this was true, well then I would hear from this major media.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what people think.
Speaker 2:I would tell you, teresa. We had a gentleman, colonel Doug James, testified in front of the Senate Armed Service Committee in 2019. I can get you a copy of that if you want. He brought this to their attention. He was on a major network, about five minutes away from speaking and then someone called in and they escorted him out of the back. That's the closest we've gotten to being on a major network.
Speaker 1:Wow. That's the closest, the closest we've gotten to being on a major network. That's the closest, Because it makes no sense If you're going to devote all this time to sexual assault not being properly prosecuted, like the Coast Guard issue like. Cnn how they broke that issue.
Speaker 2:So the media. The media like to tell one side of a story. So I believe podcasts are so important, because the American people recognizes that is most of the stories you care about Mainstream media will not take. And so that's why podcasters have become so popular, because you're willing to carry these stories. And I'll ask your audience this again Imagine this happening and you knowing with 100 percent certainty, would you trust your son or daughter for that matter to go into the military? So what do they get for acknowledging what's happening?
Speaker 1:Right and Arvis, as you told me yesterday, this is not just happening to men. There are women who have been falsely accused.
Speaker 2:I have one that I've worked with, yes, I've had one, and so here's the question I ask. There was a time where there were people who argued believe women. And I say believe evidence. Right, but nobody really wants to pick that up, and you mentioned Justin Baldoni recently.
Speaker 1:In the news. I use that as an example that man's a feminist right. For those who don't know who Justin Baldoni is Arvis, can you just give a five-second elevator?
Speaker 2:speech. So Wayfair Studios. He's a producer, he's an actor. He had this movie called it Ends With Us and he had a co-star with that who alleged sexual harassment and this is my impression from the news. Again, it's hey, you sexually harassed me by coming to my trailer while I was pumping breast milk, and then he released text messages to show he was invited and said hey, I'm only pumping breast milk, right? Is someone said hey, you showed me porn on your phone. They showed their wife's at-home birth and all the private parts were covered up. You say I did certain things to you during certain scenes. He releases the full scene so that the American people can judge for themselves. And he is a feminist. Ladies and gentlemen, if a man like Justin Baldoni has to release receipts publicly because he doesn't believe the court will give him justice, imagine what a military person would do.
Speaker 1:And that's the sad part, arvis, is that that's where we've come to with the military justice system. I see it, with so many of the lawyers that I have coordinated with to do this podcast, have coordinated with to do this podcast, is that they're coming to me because they don't trust that the courts are going to do the right thing and actually perform due process unless it's out in the open and it's in the public space that these things are occurring. And that's really unfortunate because some of these things, especially these kinds of crimes or alleged crimes, one way or the other, these are such private matters that a jury that professionals in the legal system should be able to do without undue command influence. And I think there are some wonderful good military jags out there that unfortunately, their hands are tied and the guilt has to rack them. I mean, one of the things that darren has shared with me is that it's it's, it's hard, it's hard on the people who take these cases and fight very hard for people that they believe are innocent and then to watch those people go to the brig. I mean dar Darren Lopez sailor. So I versus UCI. He spent three years in the brig. He has an entire chapter in this book about some of the things that went on in the brig and it's just, it's so disturbing and you just can't.
Speaker 1:And I will tell you, arvis, I'm a person who needs to see receipts. I'm a person, I mean, can ask darren how many times I went back and forth with him, how many different ways I asked probably the same question, how many times he had to tell me the same thing over and over again. I just had to wrap my mind around this, because it was one of those things where I I just couldn't believe it and but now I can. I mean, I see it and I watch those videos. Tell me a little bit about the YouTube videos that you showed me, where you guys went and did some testimony and it looked like you were testifying before in an official hearing.
Speaker 2:So there is a panel called the DAC iPad. It stands for Defense Advisory Committee for the Investigations, prosecutions and Defense of Sexual Assault and defense of sexual assault Backing up 2014-2015 timeframe. They did a judicial proceedings panel because among the force and the public there was not belief that the military was prosecuting these cases fairly. So they got a quote-unquote independent body there were federal judges, state judges, there were victims advocates on it, defense attorneys outside of DOD to look at the policy and recommend changes.
Speaker 1:And that sounds great, that sounds like a good thing.
Speaker 2:It does Again. Most of their stuff was victim centric. In fact, that's where I met Darren. Is that he, I and a man named Clarence Anderson, the third Air Force officer? We spoke there and after that event I started bringing other people to speak and tell their stories and we could see, because we asked for a conviction integrity unit, we started to move the needle there.
Speaker 1:Like you could see that it wasn't just going to be completely focused on the victims, but it's also going to be focused on those who are falsely accused, and it's good that they were willing to understand that due process does work both ways.
Speaker 2:Right Now. They went away, though recently, and I don't know if you would call it suspended, but they are not meeting anymore. Now. The military has something called the Military Justice Review Panel, the MJERP. They work on the UCMJ and changes. I've reached out to them. They won't even talk to me. They won't allow us to speak to hear our side If you're a quote, unquote victim all day, every day, but if you are on the other side of that, then they won't.
Speaker 1:And this brings me back to my second question, because you know I am a fairly small military podcaster. There are people even in the military space like I would say um, trying to think of somebody that's larger than me that takes on these kinds of it takes on, that takes on more serious topics, maybe jocko or sean they're not they're not podcasters, but they have a military background, so they have, they understand the military, so we'll start with them.
Speaker 1:Because, I mean, the Megyn Kellys and the Candace Owen are on another tier, I think in more of the culture and more political, national and international level. But why do you think, though, even those tier podcasters, who are not being influenced by those advertising dollars, why do you think they aren't able to understand or even look at, look at these cases or do some digging?
Speaker 2:You know what? That's a great question, teresa, and I honestly don't know. I will tell you Joe Rogan as an example. I reached out to him because he has the courage to put out shows that most people would not Sure. The closest I got was I'm not sure if he's the agent or manager Her name is Stacy Marks. She works for, I think, wme, affiliated with Justin Baldoni, or used to be, and at one point she was like hey, he's interested, and then like great, in fact, I was going to recommend Keith, go on Right For sure.
Speaker 2:Somebody that somebody understands.
Speaker 2:And then, all of a sudden, I could just get her assistant on the phone and I didn't get an answer on the email. I've tried to reach out to Sean Ryan and to others and I don't know what is causing them hesitation. I've offered them evidence and we can't even get a dialogue going. And so now I will tell you this the military is deathly afraid of this coming out on a large scale. Right, is they have taken the ignore blinders, is that it'll go away. Right, ignore blinders, is that it'll go away. Right. And so, because here's the thing, the military thinks good guy, bad guy and I hate to use the euphemism guy, but let's think Westerns. Right, one's wearing one color hat, the other's wearing the other.
Speaker 2:In every story, the military likes to tell they're the hero, they're the good guy. Look at Transformers, look at all those movies. Top Gun yep, yeah, top Gun. How do you come across as the good guy when it was Congress, the senior leaders in the military and, at one point, the president of the United States? Who's the good guy then, teresa? How do you spin that story? You're public affairs, you tell me. How do you spin?
Speaker 1:that. Yeah, I mean it's a tough one, because I look back on, like the other side, and I say, ok, tailhook or the Coast Guard Academy scandal, right, those didn't get justice either, like you know. So they're not really doing good by that either. To right the wrong on the other side and prevent justice for people who truly didn't do, it doesn't fix the fact that there were victims that weren't getting justice. And I mean I personally know a victim who did not get proper justice. I mean the person was just kind of like oh, you're an 06. Oh, you will just go on and retire and have a great life, and I, to this day don't think he was ever on a sex offender list. No criminal record, no, nothing. And so I know that those things happen too, and so, and when I took this on, I knew that I might catch some crap for it.
Speaker 1:But I just want to be fair, and to be fair I will continue to have the stories on of people who have been a victim of whatever it is sexual assault, bullying, you know whatever. But I'm also going to talk about the people who have been falsely accused, because some of the stories, like you say, are horrifying, especially the people who are sitting in jail for this. They are and still are in jail for this. They are and still are. Like there was a mother that testified about her son at that hearing and it was just heartbreaking. Or the guy who said he moved back to his hometown. He can't get a job. He can't. It's just. It's just horrifying.
Speaker 2:I was going to say I think Matt LaParte got like 20 years, who I mentioned earlier. Robert Connan got 30 years and there are so many holes in those cases. Rick Livingston got either 17 or 20. So you're right is these men have lost their 20s, their 30s in prison and you can't give that back to them, their families, their Right. And so you're right is you want a balanced system, but what we have is extreme swings and someone needs to take it here. But I'll tell you why I don't. You don't see that here is because politically that's not expedient. Right Is that when you make a change, you want to see results right away, because political cycles are what they are. So you got to swing hard one way hard right rudder, hard left rudder, so that you see results, so that you can use them to get elected or reelected. But if you take a middle course, well, that's going to take time to show and nobody wants nobody's that patient. I mean nobody I've met at least.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that's like why people always accuse me about they don't understand where I stand on things and where my line is or where I am politically, and you know, because I have covered people who are very much more on the left and then I've always admitted that I'm a little more right of center, but it doesn't mean I agree with everything on the right either. I look at the issues and if I see an injustice, I don't care what the injustice is, I want to talk about it and I want us to fix those issues. And I believe that the Department of Defense can fix those issues, but I believe that more people are going to have to have the courage to come forward in order for that to happen. That is the only way that we are going to fix this.
Speaker 2:You are correct. In fact I'm willing to name more names Joe Rogan, sean Ryan, where you at Pearl Davis put me on, and I will name more names. And I want to thank a couple people. There's Daniel Irwin, who was the first active duty person military influencer who put me on. You have a lot of military influencers. They talk about all the happy stuff. They don't talk about this stuff.
Speaker 1:No, most will never touch something like this.
Speaker 2:Teresa, I tell the audience I will never tell you not to join the military. What I will tell you is listen to both sides. If they're not willing to tell you the other side, then I would be a little suspect. Ask them what are they doing for false accusations and wrongful convictions? As well as Mr James Thomas of Tell it Like it Is, teresa, it took me two years to convince him. He had professional investigators look at our cases. He went to senior members of DOD and what they said was mistakes were made. Maybe we were overzealous and again. But getting them to say that on the record, good luck, good luck. And again, I'll even share this other name with you. Our name is Carolyn Kras. She was the DOD general counsel. She met with James after we put out a show right, so they are aware of what's happening. So he talked to the deputy secretary of defense. That's the number two, I believe. So if the number two at DOD knew, then the number one knew, and if the number one knew, they had to tell their boss, the president, and that had to make it over to the current administration. I don't know if they know or not, but my hope is that they know.
Speaker 2:And again to all you influencer podcasters hey, let's put an emphasis on this. And then one last person I'll call out Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur, democrat Ohio. The mother of Robert Andrew Condon, reached out at a local retired union meeting for her to meet with him just to help with her son's case. Her chief of staff has found every reason not to meet with her. So that's the other problem we're finding is, people are going to their members of Congress and their centers and they're not getting any help from it. And so, like I said, reach out to us and we have a petition wwwchangeorg forward slash unjust UCMJ. Please sign it, please share it to help us bring attention to this issue and bring justice to your sons.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It astounds me that there's just not even an appetite to at least look into this issue. I understand if you're skeptical. I understand if you think that this is not happening, but you're available to talk through this issue. Darren is available to talk through this issue. It didn't matter what question I hit him with, it didn't matter how many times we went back and forth. I mean we were in touch for a good four months on a consistent basis before I considered taking this on.
Speaker 1:I always knew that you can't believe all women. I have a family issue that I know that you can't believe all women. I understand there's cases like the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard case case where, yes, both of them had a lot of problems but there was clearly an aggressor and that aggressor panned out to clearly be Amber Heard. It was obvious watching the trial, and I think that for me that was very healing to see that, because having had a person who is a woman Victimized me growing up it, having had a person who is a woman victimize me growing up it, it was very hard for me to tell my story because people just don't want to believe that women can be aggressors and so I think I mean cause that was even Darren was like well, why do you even want to tell this story? You know he was suspicious about the fact that I would take this on. And I said because I know that due process needs to be fair to women and men.
Speaker 2:And Teresa, I want to thank you for having the courage to do that, because I've had women tell me that they think of it as betraying women. I know Because the purpose is here, and so we've had victims advocates come to us. We had one in particular, very well known if I were to say her name, but I won't and when she was forced to coach women how to win their MST military sexual trauma claim with zero evidence and she could clearly see that they were lying she quit. So she is a prominent victims rights advocate. We've had others come to us, but I can't get any of them to come out in public because they think it's betraying women. Where I try to frame it.
Speaker 2:You're helping true victims.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that they're afraid of the hate. I mean. The thing is, is that I mean and I'm a girl's girl? I mean I grew up with women friends. I still, to this day, have amazing women friends, and people think that if you speak poorly about another woman or you even suggest that a woman is lying about something, you're somehow castigated as you hate all women, and that's just not true.
Speaker 1:Do I think that that men can be aggressors and be and victimize women Absolutely? And they do. But I also think that this side of the story must be told and we're not seeing it and it needs to be out there because people need to understand that it exists and it's ruining people's lives. It's hurting retention, it's hurting recruiting. People don't want to, like you said, send their sons to go fight in wars if they are going to be victimized by this system.
Speaker 1:I mean I've done so many shows about the administrative system as a whole. I've done shows with lawyers who are defending clients from just these crazy miscarriages of justice. Jocelyn Stewart I had her on my podcast. It's one of my most popular and listened to shows that I've done. I've had Tim Parlatori on a couple times, the crap that Eddie Gallagher went through during his trial. I mean, this is something that has to change and I'm optimistic under Pete Hagseth that he is aware and understands that these issues are going on, and I'm optimistic under this administration that some steps will be taken to address these issues, because it's not just about this particular issue, it's about due process in general within the armed forces.
Speaker 2:And Teresa, I hope you're right there is tremendous pressure not to, and I'll tell you why. I think that is. This will come as a surprise to some Women vote. I think it's 10 million will come as a surprise to some Women vote. I think it's 10 million more votes for women during presidential elections than men. So every candidate wants to capture the women vote, the female vote, and so they're worried if they do this, it'll hurt their status potentially, and so I do believe there's people in DOD who want to do the right thing and they are scared to death of the pressure and where it comes from. So, but thank you for having the courage to do this.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And the thing is is that, as I saw with the Amber Heard Johnny Depp trial that I followed very closely because I am into pop culture, most of the people that were supporting Johnny Depp were women. I mean they and they were women who have been abused, who have been in domestic violence situations. I mean, there was a God I can't remember his name, but he's a huge YouTuber and he did a ton of he does like a pop culture podcast, something or other. Anyway, he, that's his main audience. We're all women and they're all, and I would read the comments and it was comment after comment of women who said, wow, I've, I've actually been a victim and watching her is infuriating because she's not a victim.
Speaker 1:But here's the other thing that I do want to add into this, based on just my situation, where, where I do feel there was, just there was mental abuse, is that the person who is abusing doesn't think they're abusing. That is also the problem. I think there are times that these people think that they are the victim. They have been so wrapped into this story and they've told this story to themselves so many times that it is now ingrained within them that they were victimized and you can't convince them of anything else. I really saw that during the Amber Heard trial, and I'm sure that that's also what you're up against. You're up against people that truly don't believe they've done anything wrong.
Speaker 2:Right, no, no, you're exactly right. In fact, going back to that, justin Baldoni, you saw 19 amicus briefs by groups supporting Ms Lively. You saw zero supporting Justin Baldoni, even with all the evidence he's presented, even with everything he's given. And so there have been athletes that it's happened to as well. I've reached out to them as well, and they're scared that their leagues will punish them if they speak out, because they've personally gone through it. I've had law enforcement officers admit to me they've been accused, but they were like thank God for body camera, why there's certain overtures, and so so I I hope and pray that we, as americans, are getting to the point where we can can look at some center stuff and just have these conversations, and these conversations then lead to action.
Speaker 1:They lead to things like here was another example that darren brought up to me is the fact that a victim doesn't just get the attorney services of defense legal, they get a special victim's advocate, and my understanding is that special victim's advocate has more rights than just a representative, like they're able to do things in court that-.
Speaker 2:You don't see documents ahead of time. It's like having your personal guardian angel.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that doesn't give the opportunity for both sides to have the same shake at what has happened.
Speaker 2:Teresa, let me share this with you. So there was someone who wrote a letter and we have a copy of the letter who said I'm not a victim, but one of the motivations was if you had collateral misconduct, if you had done something wrong, once you became a victim, all was forgiven. So we have a letter from a young lady and she was like hey, I'm not a victim, but I did something and they're making me become a victim. And he still got found guilty. Is you're saying, hey, I'm not really a victim, but I'm forced? Here we have another woman who came forward to us who said she had two agents come to her house and told her that if she didn't say she was a victim, they were going to tell her deployed husband that she was having an affair and she kicked them out of her house and then they go. Well, okay, maybe that wasn't true, but it was. That's the pressure that they put on people to label themselves as victims. You talked about that. Some people believe that narrative and it's because someone's pushing that on them. And you get money, you get benefits, you get. We've had someone who they got a job afterwards. We've had a victim who came to us because the man she falsely accused killed himself. So we go to the military to give this guy the justice and death that he deserved in life and nothing. She is a wreck. She takes tons of medications but her mental health record wasn't allowed right. We have an attorney who testified that he had a case up until the day before court-martial and then the military finally said that the person was getting therapy for false accusations, like she wanted help because she had a problem falsely accusing and they knew this the whole time. And then they dropped the case at the last minute. But if he didn't have that attorney, we've had attorneys tell us you mentioned you work with them. They tell their client you will go to prison. It's just a question of how long.
Speaker 2:We had again an army case where he had a video of his accuser admitting that it was consensual but she was in danger of being kicked out for a PT failure. So that was with civilian police. It's an Army case. Cid agent was present in the room. The civilian police, kentucky dropped the charges. One year later the Army picks it up. He's not allowed to use the video of her confession. He's not allowed to use the video of her confession. He's not allowed to use the CID agent who's in the room, he gets convicted, his family members die and his life is ruined. And so when I tell people this, you watch CSI and you go wait, dna evidence exonerated someone, it helped convict someone. Well, what if they threw it out? And what if nothing happened to the prosecutor? Or what if nothing happened to the judge? And that's why I started this off by reading those quotes from at that time. Then, actual judges if the judges are biased and the prosecutions are biased and the commanders are biased and Congress is biased, how can you expect a fair and balanced system?
Speaker 1:You won't, you absolutely won't. How are all these people finding you guys like how, where, where can? If? If somebody's watching this tonight and they know somebody or they have experienced this and they want to tell their story or they want to reach out and and get some support, what can they do?
Speaker 2:um, you can reach out to me. I'm on social media. Uh, arvis owens at yahoocom is my email address. I've had since I was 22 years old, so people tease me because I don't have a Gmail, but I love me some Yahoo. I got that and I just put it out right there. And again, you asked me a question how do we know? These people have to be prepared to show receipts, to have an investigator, an attorney, review their record to make sure they're legitimate, to have an investigator and attorney review their record to make sure they're legitimate. And so that's how we determine hey, are you telling the truth? And then we hope you're willing to share that information so we can attract others, as well as the attention, to say wow, I can't believe this case. You mean to tell me at DNA, he had a video. You know Matt LaParte's case. He's got a video of the encounter. They have a copy and they won't let him use it.
Speaker 1:This is shocking. It's absolutely shocking and it's awful. It is absolutely awful and it must change.
Speaker 2:It must, and thank you for people like yourself who are willing and have the courage to put us on and to let us share our stories and to listen, and that's all we ask. And the challenge is, you would be maybe you wouldn't be surprised. I was very surprised at how hard it is to get people to listen. They find out think Innocence Projects. I've contacted them. A lot of them get federal funding and so there's a belief that, wait, if I help you, this may impact my funding. Wow, as well as well, yours is military. We just they want to attack state cases. They don't really want to touch anything other than that. At least, that's been my experience.
Speaker 1:So so, to put this all full circle, you were, you were falsely accused. Tell me what ended up happening with your case. I don't think we finished on that. We didn't finish on that, sure.
Speaker 2:So I was charged with seven counts of sexual assault. I was found not guilty of six. And then my accuser said another inconsistent statement Other people call them lies, but you can't say lie in court. During sentencing and my jury, my panel, asked to revote that sole guilty for the per se assault. They said, hey, we want to revote it. And the judge says you can't because she's been saying inconsistent statements the whole trial.
Speaker 2:But that last one was the straw that broke the camel's back. So I was found guilty of the one count of sexual assault violating a general order. The judge admitted, hey, there was no evidence he violated the general order. The judge admitted, hey, there was no evidence he violated the general order. And it turned out they didn't even have a copy of the general order that they found me guilty of violating and then soliciting someone other than my wife. I was married, I am married still, and they sentenced me to zero jail time.
Speaker 2:Some of them wrote letters to the convening authority, rear Admiral Markham Rich, saying look, they didn't even like me. Hey, we don't like this guy. But he didn't do this. I want you to think about it. They don't like me, hey, we don't like you. Well, he didn't do it.
Speaker 2:The Navy misplaced the letters, said they never got it. Thankfully my attorney had receipts. So it goes to the Navy and Marine Corps Court of Appeals. And what they did was they granted me a second convening authorities action where he could see the letters enough to overturn the verdict. We said, hey, give me a new trial.
Speaker 2:My lawyer said all those inconsistent statements she gave she's not going to want to do that. She had a settlement offer with them that they would not disclose to me and it was contingent on me being found guilty of sexual assault. The Navy sent a letter to the appellate court asking them not to give me an appeal, even though by right I had one. My lawyers were amazed because they said this almost never happens. They're asking for a favor is what they're doing. And so, even though they gave me one, all they gave me was a new convening authority's action where he considered the letters and then he said no, I concur. And if you concur with a guilty finding, then you don't have that scrutiny by the Senate Armed Services Committee and that is what happened, so you had to stick with just that one charge with zero.
Speaker 2:Well, three the one charge of sexual assault, right the general order. They did overturn that because they said, hey, you're right, there was no evidence and they didn't have a copy. But the soliciting someone under your wife and the one count of sexual assault they kept. The state of Virginia in 2021 removed me from the sex offender registry two weeks that I directed your audience to go to an insider, told me hey, they call DOD and you're telling the truth, and I'm like you sound surprised. And he said yeah, we looked at your case and he said something that I didn't even say.
Speaker 2:He said your lawyer asked your accuser did you use force, threats, coercion? And she said no, and that to be convicted of sex assault, you need an element of force. It could be mental force, psychological force and she said no, and that to be convicted of sex assault, you need an element of force. It can be mental force, psychological force and your own accuser said you didn't. So how can we keep you on this list Now? But I will tell you any state or territory that I work in, they can decide to put me right back on the registry, even though Virginia took me off, and they're just worried about a lawsuit, is it. That's why they did it and they call DOD and they're like he's telling the truth.
Speaker 1:So if you move to another state, they could do a background check on you and then decide to put you back on.
Speaker 2:They could. Every investigation in the military you get something called title where you're put in the FBI database, all the military and the civilian database, for 40 years. And, teresa, even if you get found not guilty, even if they chapter 10 you out, even if you just go to NJP, if they launch an investigation, they will title you. We have a young man. He was found not guilty of all charges but he's still titled. So it'll say accused of sexual assault, dot dot dot not guilty. What do you think an employer says when they see that?
Speaker 1:Especially somebody that needs a clearance.
Speaker 2:Correct. He applied for about 64 jobs after he graduated from college. He got out and went to college, used GI Bill and he got discharged honorably. He's still sitting on his dad's couch no jobs, because they still see that on the title. So that's what I educate families about is that, njp, you can still get title, chapter 10, you can still get title, and you can't buy a firearm, you can't work with children, you can't work with law enforcement, you can't sponsor an overseas spouse for citizenship. There are a host of things, and my last statement about it is in January of 2025, they made sexual harassment a covered offense and I would tell you this, teresa there's some people who believe that if you look at them too long, you've sexually harassed them, and in the military, that's two years in prison and a dishonorable discharge.
Speaker 1:It's something that can be weaponized.
Speaker 2:It's weaponized exactly. You use colorful language. Imagine military people using profanity. I know your audience will be amazed and surprised that they might. If someone takes offense that can be used to prosecute you for sexual harassment. I just want you to consider that and ask say hey, is that right? Well, yeah, it started January 2025. And there's something called the Office of Special Trial Counsel, which are the top guns of prosecution. They have more experience, more money, more investigators. They get all the evidence first and I'm not going to say they're going to assign Barney Fife to be your defense counsel. And I'm not going to say they're going to assign Barney Fife to be your defense counsel.
Speaker 1:But you know it's a box of chocolates over there on the defense side, and so you're not getting the same type of services Correct For a defense as the person, as the people who are sometimes handling the prosecution side yes, wow. Well, I can tell you that I will be following this very, very closely and I want to thank everybody who's been watching tonight. The numbers on this show have been incredible as far as the people who've been tuning in. A little bit of life podcast is on here Jim Lippard, diamond Blade, a lot of comments, mostly on youtube. So please, uh know that I really appreciate everybody who took the time, uh, the hour that this took to, to really dive into this.
Speaker 1:I know I started a little early and that was to explain, uh, why I didn't have darren on the show, but we were able to get darren's story out there. If you would like to reach out to me and get a free copy of darren's book I do have just a few copies here. The only thing that I ask is preferably, I would love to have somebody reach out to me who's interested and willing and able to tell their story, and I think that reading darren's story would really inspire you and I would love the opportunity to send that book on to you, but you and I would love the opportunity to send that book on to you. But thank you so much, arvis. Is there anything that I didn't cover? Anything else that you want to add while we're on the show tonight?
Speaker 2:No, teresa, you know there's a thousand different things, but you did a fabulous job of creating a space, and I agree with that. Is is listening to both sides and and coming up with something here instead of swinging to extremes. I want to thank you and your audience for being patient, for taking time to listen and understand, and just thank you again. I can't be more thankful than that.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you. Darren said that he prayed on it and that was around the time that, I guess, I started to get back to him on LinkedIn. He had reached out to me quite a few times and I hadn't had a chance to really deepen into his story. And then, right before I went on a vacation, I downloaded his book and I had no wifi while I was on this trip and I use that as an opportunity to read his book and take tons of notes and have lots of questions, and that's why we're here today. So, again, I highly encourage you guys to check out his book. I link to it in the show notes description.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry Darren couldn't be with us tonight, but I have no doubt that at some point we will see him on the Stories of Service podcast or, as I told him, he might have an opportunity to go on a bigger concast than me, and if he does, I'll be cheering for him all the way, because that's what we really want. We want this to be the show that opens the door and gets other people talking about this issue, not just me and again, it wasn't just me. There was an amazing active duty influencer. There was the tell it like it is, guy, I'm on the, you know, on the backs of those people who've already taken this case on, so we will continue to do what we can to share this story. So thank you everyone. Thank you, arvis, really appreciate it. I'll meet you backstage as I go full screen.
Speaker 1:All right, guys, thank you so much for joining me tonight. I know this was a very heavy topic, but very, very important, so really, really appreciate it. As I always say to close out these calls, please take care of yourselves, take care of each other and spread the word on this show. Please tell people that this is going on, because I do believe that there are more people who this impacted and if they have the courage to share their story and to speak up the media, the world. They can, can't, they can't stop this and there's going to be something that will be done about it. I really believe that. All right, god bless, have a wonderful evening. Bye, bye now.