S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
From the little league coach to the former addict helping those still struggling, hear from people from all walks of life how they show up as a vessel for service and drive for transformational change. Hosted by Theresa Carpenter, a 28-year active duty U.S. naval officer who found service was the path to unlocking trauma and unleashing your inner potential.
S.O.S. (Stories of Service) - Ordinary people who do extraordinary work
From Navy SEAL to Advocate – The Journey of Bill Brown - S.O.S. #169
From Navy SEAL to Advocate – The Journey of Bill Brown
In this episode, we sit down with Bill Brown, an Iraq Veteran Navy SEAL who served honorably for eight years, completing three deployments. Bill shares his incredible journey from the battlefield to higher education, where he utilized the Montgomery GI Bill to attend Rutgers University and Rutgers Law School.
Now, Bill works alongside renowned military and veteran attorney Tim Parlatore at Parlatore Law Group, where he advocates for the rights and well-being of service members and veterans.
Bill is also the founder and driving force behind the NYC SEAL Swim, an inspiring event that has raised millions of dollars to support Gold Star families, Navy SEALs, and their loved ones. He opens up about the mission behind the swim, the impact it’s had, and what motivates him to give back to the SEAL community.
Join us for this powerful conversation about service, resilience, and making a difference beyond the uniform.
Highlights from the episode:
• Bill’s journey as a Navy SEAL, including three deployments to Iraq.
• How the Montgomery GI Bill helped him transition to civilian life and pursue higher education.
• His work at Parlatore Law Group advocating for military and veteran communities.
• The NYC SEAL Swim: its mission, success stories, and the lives it’s touched.
• Bill’s reflections on leadership, legacy, and service beyond the battlefield.
Connect with Bill Brown:
• Learn more about the NYC SEAL Swim: https://impact.navysealfoundation.org/event/2024-nyc-seal-swim/e559597
• Follow Bill on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/williambrown77?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app
Tune in to this episode for an inspiring look at the life and legacy of a true American hero!
Visit my website: https://thehello.llc/THERESACARPENTER
Read my writings on my blog: https://www.theresatapestries.com/
Listen to other episodes on my podcast: https://storiesofservice.buzzsprout.com
Watch episodes of my podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/c/TheresaCarpenter76
Can you heal yourself and rise to leadership in the Navy's highest enlisted ranks In this powerful episode today? We're joined by Amori Ponciano, an inspiring example of authenticity, accountability and transformation. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing well, how are you doing?
Speaker 1:I am doing really, really well. I am so honored to have you. In fact, I really don't have a whole lot of people who come to the show from the enlisted community.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I'm. One of the things I've been saying to myself is I need to have more enlisted people on the broadcast, because there's one I'm prior enlisted, so I definitely have a my heart you know, and also just because you're the heart and soul of the Navy.
Speaker 1:Like the military does not operate without a strong enlisted force. So I can't wait to talk to you. I'm gonna read a little bit about your bio and then I'm just gonna get started with some questions. We do have comments that you can chime in during the broadcast. If I don't get to your comment, we'll take care of it after the broadcast. You can find me on LinkedIn, facebook and YouTube and if you're on any of those websites and seeing this broadcast, please be sure to hit subscribe, hit like follow. Definitely want to get as much support as possible for this passion project, so from surviving the tragic USS.
Speaker 1:Cole bombing to battling his own personal demons.
Speaker 1:Amory's story is a raw and honest reminder that true leadership begins with owning your struggles and turning them into strengths. Born in the Dominican Republic and raised in New Jersey, amory's 20 plus years of Navy service have been defined by resilience, sacrifice and the pursuit of excellence. Today we are going to talk about how he witnessed the unimaginable loss during the USS Cole disaster, confronting personal flaws, including a battle with serial womanizing, balancing the demands of military life with his roles as a son, father and mentor. But his journey isn't just about challenges. It's also about growth.
Speaker 1:He's a two-time master's degree graduate, most recently earning one in applied cyber operations from the Naval Postgraduate School. He's a global traveler who's visited over 80 countries and 100 cities, a soccer enthusiast and a lover of cultural exploration through food. His why are his kids and leaving a legacy his mother and children can be proud of. And today we're also going to be talking about his amazing book Anchored in Resilience Overcoming Adversity Through Mental Health Awareness. Whether you're navigating your own struggles or striving to be a better leader and human, today this conversation, we hope, will leave you inspired to take accountability, embrace growth and lead with authenticity. Welcome again.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:So, first off, I always ask my where were you born and raised and how did your journey into the military begin?
Speaker 2:So I was born in the Dominican Republic, in the capital, santo Domingo. My parents got divorced when I was about three years old. When I was about three years old. So, unfortunately, because of that, I bounced a lot from whether it was living with my mom to living with my dad, to then living with some of my aunts. I think I was given too much freedom as a child to choose where I wanted to be Like. So if I didn't feel comfortable, like when my dad got remarried, so if I didn't like my stepmom, I will say I want, I don't want to live here, I want to live somewhere else.
Speaker 2:Um, and you know, I we were very poor, right, um, and my mother remarried as well and, um, the person that she married, he, uh, had a citizenship in the United States. So he did the paperwork for her and my brothers at the time, and he actually included me. But because I come from a different marriage, I needed my dad to sign the papers for me to leave, but he didn't. His reasoning was simply that he was scared that I will be coming to the us, to new york, um, where there might be a lot of drugs, and he didn't want me to get caught up on that right. Unfortunately that's not what I was told to me by him. He just simply said that my mother left me, which you can only imagine what that does to an eight, nine-year-old. So finally, I came to the US in 1994.
Speaker 2:My dad finally signed the papers in 1991, I'm sorry because my granddad was passing and that was as he was in his bed, you know just, you know about to die, kind of thing. He asked my dad as a favor, to like sign the papers so I could come to the US. And I had a lot of anger in me when I came to the US, right, I was really.
Speaker 1:I was like I thought your mom didn't. Did you ever get a chance to ask her or talk to her during this time that your dad was saying, oh, no, no?
Speaker 2:No, at that time I still had my dad in like this view, that like he wouldn't lie to me. And yeah, he, just why would he do that? Right? And then it was just little things that my mom did that there were also like mistakes within it, like, for example, when she left, um, because she didn't want to see me crying in the airport, she, I didn't go to say goodbye to her to the airport.
Speaker 2:I found out that my mom left to the us like three days later, right, because I asked my aunt like where's my mom, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Uh, or she will come from the summer and you know she will bring me like all these clothes from the us and like toys and things. So like my focus will go, as a child, to go to dad, but then the anger will go back as soon as you have to go back. Right, come back to the us, which you know she only will go there for like a couple of weeks. So she took vacation from work, um, so it was never something that was talked about until I finally moved in with her when I was 14. And the only reason even was which just surprised me to an extent that she waited this long. It was because for that first year that I was there, like I said, I was really bad, like from from something as simple as she telling me to take out the trash or to do a chore. I would tell her something smart like well, if you would have raised me, I would have done this better, or just smart comments like that.
Speaker 1:Right, just resentful and angry.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And then she got to the point where it was enough, and back in those days is when you had like two phones in two different locations but you only had like one line in your house. So she called my dad while I was on the other side of the phone and she just told me to be quiet and she started asking him questions related to how that happened, how it actually went down, and it was something that he said that like kind of did not match up to what he's been telling me for years. So I finally got like said something while I was crying and I was like so it's true that you just lied to me, that you just like told me that my mom left me, when in reality was that you didn't sign the papers and he just stayed quiet, which to me was the answer that that it was true that what my mom was saying, instead of what he'd been saying for years so funny enough then, like my mom became then this top the more powerful parent in your life, but do you think that?
Speaker 1:your dad also just didn't want him, didn't want you to leave him, like he wanted you there to be with him.
Speaker 2:I would understand that if I was living with him, but I was living with my aunts from my mom's side and I like looking back while it's happening. You don't think of it, especially as a teenager, but I do remember, like whenever we had the weekends that he will come get me for the weekends, where I will try to do like little things, like sit by his side as he's playing dominoes with his friends, and and I remember, I recall vivacly, like yesterday, where he will just give me money so I could buy, you know, drinks or ice cream or whatever kind of kind of like, so I could get away right, um, and you know, I I probably was trying to be all in the game while he's playing with adults. So so I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna give him some grace on that, um, but I don't really believe that it's necessarily more about that he wanted me to be around because he wanted me to be there. I think he still didn't want me to go because of the drugs and things that were in New York, because that's where my mom used to live before she moved to New Jersey.
Speaker 2:But, hindsight, what I try to learn from that experience is you have to be completely honest with your children, even at whatever age they might be, and tell them the entire facts so that way you're not, you don't have to go back 10 years later and trying to redo the story. Uh, I wish you would have just simply told me that, like, instead of saying that my mom left me, say, hey, I didn't sign it because I didn't feel like you will be safe over there. Yeah, I would probably would still be upset, right, because I miss my mother. But it would make more sense than just simply your mom left you.
Speaker 1:Right, right. And then have you blaming your mom and angry at your mom all these years for something that wasn't really the truth of how these things turn out, and something like that leaves like a really deep scar, like you said, and I know that shaped what happened throughout your military journey. And tell us a little bit about what made you decide to join the Navy. How did that start?
Speaker 2:So I was doing well in school start. So, um, I was doing well in school and I remember, um, there was one program, one class you had to take, like the junior year, senior year, where they take you to a college and, depending on what documents your parents sign, they allow you to even stay overnight with like a sophomore or junior from the school. And I, I went to two schools. I went to Boston College and there was another university in New Jersey, but for some reason the person that they put me with both times was party going, having the time of their life, kind of thing. And I told myself as a 17-year-old, very honest with myself, I was like, if I come to school and I'm away from my parents, I probably do one semester and then I'll be dropping out or the money will be wasted because I will just be having fun. And I also knew that my mom didn't have that kind of money. So all I was offered was like partial scholarships here and there to like a couple of schools. So all I was offered was like partial scholarships here and there to like a couple of schools.
Speaker 2:So the military started coming to the conversation, just simply because her husband at the time. He was prior army. So he was like, hey, if you won, what was some of the things he would say if you want a stability, if you want structure, the military and benefits, right. So, funny enough, I took my ass back for the Army, but the Army recruiter all he was talking about was infantry and I was like, well, I want to work with computers and, like most recruiting offices, all you have to do is just walk outside and in that P-Way there's full of other offices and I just went. The next one was for the Navy and I just saw a bunch of pictures of the recruiter have in the back with beautiful women and I was told, if you could get the paperwork from the army guy, then I'm, I will join the Navy, you know, next month, kind of thing. And that's what made me pick the Navy.
Speaker 1:Right. It's really interesting how important it is to know someone who served, or have just some sort of frame of reference of somebody around you that understands the military, for you to actually want to join. And for me it was very similar. I lived with a marine reservist. His name was ryan thornton and, uh, he just talked about it and told me that it would be one weekend a month, two weeks in the summer. It'd be this part-time gig and I was like, okay, I'll go see a recruiter. And then the recruiter just talked me into going full time and it wasn't even like I even understood what I was doing. But I had Brian.
Speaker 1:And then there was a guy I was hanging out with at the time named Andrew Sword, who also was like, yeah, you should do this. And really it was. It was not something that was in my family. My dad was drafted in the Army for a couple of years, but he didn't talk about it a lot, so it was something completely out of the ordinary from all my friends, for you and the people that you were hanging around with at the time. Was this a surprising decision for people?
Speaker 2:Actually, no, my best friend, which was funny because he was going through it. We talked about everything but for some reason he was not telling me that he was going through trying to go into the military and the Navy, until I said something and he's like, oh yeah, I'm also trying to do it as well. So we both joined and actually there was another guy, so it was a group of like six of us that we always hang out and three out of the six we joined the Navy Actually, all three of us. The last one he put for buds and we were watching a movie later on Make the story short he never showed up to go to boot camp or anything because he got scared once he saw the things that you have to do if you're trying to become a Navy SEAL.
Speaker 2:But me and my best friend, like we joined, he actually just got out like after his first tour. But yeah, it was surprising in a sense because to them, mostly because of my grades, like I had really good grades. I was, you know, I could have probably, you know they thought I was going to go to college, like that was. I was a goodie and the group, um, but I just I one the bottom line is I didn't have a full scholarship for anything, so I didn't have. My parents didn't have that money. And then two I honestly just did not see myself having that structure like I.
Speaker 2:Just, I just knew that because my mom was talking about retiring back to Dominican Republic. So I knew that she was not going to be there to kind of keep me straight or even live with her while I was going to school. So I just had to make that decision and say, yeah, I'm just going to waste money and I will have to pay it back. So I was like I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it's just interesting because I really do believe that this book is more about like a sailor's journey, like there's so much in this book that gives people the backstory of what it's really like to serve in the navy, um and and really never know, from one duty station to the next duty station, where you're going to end up, which countries you're going to visit, what experiences you're going to have. I mean, it's just such an unpredictable roller coaster. So tell me a little bit about after you go through boot camp and then, after boot camp, you decide to go into IT Now how did that all come about?
Speaker 2:So I was lucky enough that I was given the rate of the IT right. So at the time we were still even called RMs, because that's what we were called. So I even got. I was the last class that was singing RMA school, as we were walking in Great Lakes. And then while I was in class I remember that like I was number two in class and it was time to pick orders and my only like question to my instructor was I wanna go somewhere where I'm able to do everything within my rate and I want it to be a newer ship right, because we were told all the males which was crazy to me all the males had to go to ships, all the females had to go to shore duty, right, like that was. That was the thing back then. Um, yeah and uh.
Speaker 2:So I went down the list, the the first guy, the number one he picked. I remember, like it was yesterday, he picked the John F Kennedy out of Mayport. At that time it was the old John F Kennedy carrier. And so then I went down the line and he was like my instructor was like the US is called the newest destroyer which at that time she was commissioned in 1996. And this was back in ninety nine. So she was like the newest destroyer which at that time she was commissioned in 1996. And this was back in 99. So she was like the newest commission DDG and you know that she was out of Norfolk.
Speaker 2:So that kind of also helped me because I was like, well, it's close enough, as close as I could get to my mother, to Jersey without being in Jersey, right, virginia. So to go to the coal, I remember my sponsor telling me to show up a little bit earlier than my 30 days. That I was allowed because we were going to go to do some exercise and then we were going to go on deployment and she wanted me to prepare for an exercise before so I could get a taste of it before going on deployment, which actually was something great that if I could tell a failure, I will say the same thing to kind of get your feet wet, for lack of other words, before you hit a big deployment. But yeah, and then we went on deployment on August 2nd of 2000.
Speaker 1:So what's great is that you got to see the workup cycle and then you got to see this. So the workup cycle is where we train to do all the things that we might have to do on deployment and we go through different phases.
Speaker 1:It's called now but, basic, intermediate and advanced, and in each one of these phases we see different sides of the ship that are going to need to be tested or exercised to face any kind of threat, and so it's a really great opportunity for you to gel with your division and to get the culture of the ship and to work out all of the bugs. You get assessors that come out and test you on everything, and so it's really great that you got to see that as a real junior sailor, the workup cycle and then you did the deployment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, like I said, it was so good to like.
Speaker 2:Of course I was lost and a lot of confusion, a lot of things and getting used to a small little rack and like all these things.
Speaker 2:But if you think about it, I rather that way because we came back home and then we went to Palm and leave and all the stuff, like at least I got that out. So by the time I was on deployment I was ready and focused on being on deployment instead of having to learn where's the galley or where's the hours of the galley, or how it is to um, fire flyer if it happens, because I've been been doing that training already or how it is to do on rep, uh, replenishment, like out to sea, like all that. We went through all those things. So by the time deployment came, it wasn't I mean, you can't count for everything but like most of the regular basis stuff was nothing new to me. So it was truly an advantage, uh, as a young seaman e1 at a time to be able to go through all that stuff and I actually even started my clock to go, uh, be a food assistant, attendant, fsa, what they call it now.
Speaker 1:So yep, yep, that's a big step for everyone who gets to a ship.
Speaker 1:In my world as an airedale, it's the lime shack that was at the start I was fortunate because I had one duty station before I got to my ship and so by the time I came to my duty station I was already in E4, the Sea Control Squad 35, vs35. So I did not have to go to the line shack, kind of similar to the FSA duties that our ship's company do, and, I don't know, maybe the Airedales, I think they also go down and do FSA duties as well, from my understanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, some of them do one in a carrier, right, because everybody has to go from each department.
Speaker 1:yes, Exactly Also.
Speaker 2:I meant to say I'm sure you probably know her, or I'm guessing you do, Leah.
Speaker 1:Stiles says always proud of your bravery, amore, thanks for setting the example I. I just cherish uh former senior chief, uh leah styles she is an important cs and uh definitely has become a good friend now for the past couple years. So when did things? Now we're going to transition to kind of the culminating moment of your career, I think, or one I mean but you know what, though, after writing the book, it's that's a part of what you've gone through.
Speaker 1:But, man, it doesn't. I mean it's, it's, it's shaped things, but it's not the big part of your story. My view is, the big part of your story is the finding the love and your children and just the way you worked on yourself. But let's go back the call. So tell us a little bit about what happened on that deployment leading up to the tragedy on Porto, uss Cole.
Speaker 2:So so kind of to give the background because I feel it's important to talk about. Was that so for the call right, I went on deployment and the way that we had the schedule back in. Uh one, we were not at war, this, the, this was before 9-11, um, and things were a lot more relaxed and we were independent steaming, which means we were not attached to a strike group, we was by ourselves, um, so our schedule literally was we will, we would pull into a port on a Monday, be there Monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday, and then we will leave on a Friday, be out to sea Friday afternoon, saturday, sunday, and then pull into another port on Monday, monday. So it was. You know, it was fantastic. For a young seaman it's like, oh my God, I'm just going to all of these different cities. This is why I joined the Navy, but what I wish, and between that and those two and a half days that we were out to sea, we did a lot of drills. And if it was not drills that were general quarter, that were done by the ship as a whole, there was drills that were done within my shop and IT world. Like my leading petty officer, my LPO, he will literally unplug things and make us fix it right. So there was a constant training. There was a constant you know how would you fix this gear? And if this gear doesn't work, what would you kick into? What would you do with this and that. So our mindset was and our CEO had us in the mindset of like, yeah, we're going to have fun, I'm going to pull you into these sports, we're going to be there for four days, but when we are at the scene, we're going to practice, just in case, right, like that was the key thing, just in case something happens.
Speaker 2:And then we went through the Sewells Canal and we had an oil leak and that was like a real deal, like an emergency. So we went through general quarters it was like 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning we lost a lot of fuel. Like it was like two or three o'clock in the morning, um, we lost a lot of fuel. So we had to um, pull into the port to refuel and, um, you know, the ship was told to go to aid in yemen. Um, if you go, as we were going into yemen as an, uh, as a seaman and a destroyer, you're part of every evolution. In my case, I was part of the sea and anchor detail which is used to moor the ship to appear. I was in the forward part, up front, in line number one, and I remember as we were coming into the port it looked weird to all of us because there was a few ships that were sunk and they were from their own navy, for the yemenese navy, but still, I've never seen that in another court. Um, and the way the port was, uh was was kind of, if you could picture it, the harbor was kind of like a? U right and then just the land, and then in the middle of it it was a small pier that was for refueling and so we pulled in facing Taurus land, but the CEO, you know told, told their authorities that he wanted to turn the ship just in case something happens, which meant that the starboard side, the right side of the ship, was more to that, to that small little pier. So we started refueling. They're secure to see an little gear. So we started refueling. They're securing the CN anchor detail.
Speaker 2:I went down to my shop, which we call it radio, and the XO came over the speaker, the 1MC, and said hey, we're refueling faster than expected, so we're going to call Airline Tau for a watch release. So that way you got to go back to CNN for detail and leave. I was training Dex Seaman me and another Seaman, seaman Guano. He was in IT. We were training Dex Seaman Seaman Wiberly, who wanted to become an IT, and when the word was passed all three of us went from radio to the mess line to grab some food.
Speaker 2:The two of them decided to go up front because when you are the person that has the next watch, you get ahead of the line privilege. This is one of the few times that I guess my womanizer part of me and my desire to be talking to women actually help, because I stay behind because I want to talk to a girl. Right, I say that because within five minutes later I heard the loudest noise I ever heard in my life and, my feet off the ground, I hit myself in the and I hit the person that I was talking to and I first. My first thought was that the refueling station blew up Right and I was standing on the starboard side inside of the ship. So that would have meant that I would have been killed if it would have been that. So.
Speaker 1:Where were you on the bus? Were you like in the eating area, or were you like by the serving line? I'm just picturing it in my head.
Speaker 2:By the serving line, right, I don't know if you've ever been on board a destroyer, but it's by the serving in the middle. Okay, uh it I. I was in the repair file, which is mission. I was literally standing by the door of repair five and so I, you know, heard the noise. Everybody's kind of like what's going on and I kind of take like a few steps to look to where the mess line is going. And I'm not trying to make light of this, but it looked like in the movies when you see smoke and fire coming towards you. So of course all of us panic the ones that are still standing and are not hurt and we decide to go back to the back of the ship to see if we could get out of the ship to go outside to the flag deck. But that's when the XO came from topside and he started passing word of mouth because the the one and c the speaker did not work and he said hey, we've been hit. Uh, we don't know if there's snipers out there.
Speaker 2:So go to the gq station, um, and my station was radio. So I head down to radio. I get there and my chief is there with another, with an IT1 first class party officer and a second class party officer and she tells me look, I have the two people for the save, just in case we have to do destruction. Go back to your old repair locker. And my old repair locker was repair two, which was a forward. So I head that way and I don't remember if it was a chief or an officer, but it was someone that was wearing their. They had a khaki veil. I do remember that. And he just said, hey, all the damage control efforts are being done back aft by repair three. So head back that way. So I again, just following directions, I head down that way.
Speaker 2:Now that I recall that, I remember that like I was doing stuff that I was doing just a muscle memory, like closing hatches, that I remember that I had to do right, because I used to be one of the set the boundary in my repair locker, the set the boundary, my repair locker, um. So as I was heading back out, I was just closing things as I was going, just to ensure that you know there was no fire or water or anything, um going. But on my way there, right around miss ships, uh, where the scullery is, uh I saw a body, uh, that was covered with um, with a blanket, and I don't know, but something told me to just lift the blanket and see who it is and it was Seaman Gunn. And he was a single man, or now a QMs, and he was one of those that, like, we had a group of like five of us that we hang out with. He was one of them.
Speaker 2:And that's when it really like, hit me, um, and the 19 year old me, like that was not, I was not a sailor in that moment anymore, I was just simply a 19 year old scale. When I started to cry um, and I just froze, I was on my knees and I just couldn't move. I don't know how long was that for 30 seconds, two minutes, I can't tell you, but I do know that someone tapped me in my shoulder and, uh, he said, hey, he's dead, we need to save the ship and we need to save ourselves, and that kind of made me snap um, and then I headed back down to repair three, like I was supposed to. I was still crying, and then I headed back down to repair three, like I was supposed to. I was still crying, I was still scared, but I headed back there and then after that, I was doing what I was told, right, like there was nothing heroic about what I did. I just simply hey, we need you to bring these buckets here because this place is flooding. We need you to take this P100, which was used to deflood spaces. I literally just stood there to look at it and make sure that it was working for 20, 30 minutes.
Speaker 2:But what I do recall from when I think back, all I had in my head was I'm going to do whatever they tell me to do, because I wanted to go back to my mother, like that. That was my drum for doing anything and everything they told me to do. Right, I wish I could tell you that it was. You know, I wanted to save the ship. I wanted to even save my other shipmates, but at that time, semen Ponciano, all I was thinking was the one person that I loved the most at that time, which was my mother. I didn't have my children or anything like that at that time. I just wanted to go home to her For the next couple of days. We didn't have any clean water I'll let you picture how that is as far as not even able to go to the head. We didn't have any food. All we had was whatever was in the ship's door which thankfully was a forward, so it wasn't damaged, because the reefer deck were completely damaged, but we didn't have any food and we had to sleep outside in the skin of the ship with sometimes temperature reaching about 120 degrees because we were in Yemen.
Speaker 2:So those first 72 hours were pretty horrible, right, the shock of like seeing your friends, because in a small crew like that, you get to know people really well.
Speaker 2:So I knew everybody, we all knew everybody, right, and I remember, as I was going and doing all the things that I was doing, I remember seeing people and be like, okay, he's alive, or she's alive, or, yes, she's injured but she's still alive like, and then it got to a point where I was like we're so-and-so and we're so-and-so and we're, you know, and you start thinking and they start telling you that they're in different places. And then, as the smoke clear, I started going to places where other people and I got to see a couple of other bodies. Unfortunately that they passed away and something that will always haunt me. But I just needed, I needed that closure to move on, like I wanted to see where, where were they right there with my people, people that I knew, and yeah, it's, uh, it's something that I, to this day, uh, I go through therapy and you know the people that I need to uh to ensure that I it doesn't consume me right.
Speaker 1:How was your leadership during this time? Like was your ceo and the xo and theC? Were they keeping people informed or were they just as overwhelmed as everybody else? How did you feel as a culture, the culture of the ship?
Speaker 2:I will say that because I was so low on the tolling pole as a steamer, I did hear from my chief. My chief did keep us, the IPs, our little division, informed. This is what's going on. I will say, though, that there were I think it was by the second day or third day we started doing colors. The CEO I remember our chief and department of CPO telling us all of us like in all hands for combat system operations because that's what we were part of back then Kind of like we want to bring some level of normalcy, so we need to start having colors. We need to, you know, clean where we could clean, like just little things.
Speaker 2:And I can tell you right now, simon Ponciano could not understand why we're worrying about doing colors. When it's hot, you know what? I could start smelling the dead bodies because they haven't been pulled out right, and so I didn't get it right, and because it was so hot, they would allow us to bring our coveralls down, just wear that white shirt and kind of tie our coveralls in the middle. Well, what happened when we would have to do colors is you have to put your uniform back together. So I remember being really upset about that, like, why are we doing this? And I remember it was one chief I can't remember the name right now but he kind of grabbed me because you know, remember who like the name right now. Um, but he kind of grabbed me because you know there's things the chiefs could do back then they can't do now.
Speaker 2:And uh, give me like a little, got me close and said he said he said to me, we do this because we have to show them that, no matter what, this flag will fly yeah and still, at that time, simon Ponciano, still that went over his head, like I still was like whatever man, like in my head of course I didn't say that to the chief, but it's, I got an older. I'm very appreciated that we did that. So we find things to, and that symbol was so huge for all of us to just see that we were like we were not defeated, like the ship was like tilted. Yet we still have we're having colors, we were manding, manning the weapons. We finally got the marines, the fast teams wouldn't help us, and then we have a couple of ships that came help us, but it was just little things like that.
Speaker 2:So, as far as the leadership, I think the communication was there, like in the sense of like they let us know when the divers were coming to to bring the bodies, like anything else, right, that there are certain things that that were was said. Um, that I feel like, might feel like there was an insult to our intelligence, but it was more to try to I don't know to not to try to like keep with some a little level-headed because, for example, one of the things that was said was that that smell that we were smelling was, uh, food being rotten. No, and you guys hear the truth. Yeah, you know what I mean, but like it just, I think it was just hard to say that, like that's, that's the smell of our shit, of our shit. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I mean it was Everybody didn't know how to deal with something like this. I mean, when you really think about it, nobody thinks that this is really going to happen. Yes, we train for it and we do drills in case something like this happens, but you never know what is going to happen or how people are going to react until they did, and I do think that the fact that they try to give you guys a sense of normalcy as soon as they could says a lot as well. I mean, it's definitely something that I would also think over the years. We probably would deal with differently now than we did back then, just because we're so much more, as a force, educated about mental health. I mean, looking back on it, perhaps they should have immediately put you know flew in grief counselors to talk to the crew and to really help you guys process what had happened. How long did you stay on call after this happened, though?
Speaker 2:Because I think you stayed on there quite a while afterwards yeah, so I, I stay on board.
Speaker 2:Actually, I was actually not lucky. I was one of the few that was selected to bring one of the bodies back, so I left before most of the crew did. Uh, I brought one of semen guana, who was the it. Me and him were really close so I was chosen to bring his body back to his family. Me and him were really close, so I was chosen to bring his body back to his family. So I left the ship about like seven days after the violence. Um, and once I landed in virginia, uh, thankfully someone was like you're not, you guys are not trained to do that, plus all the things that you went through, you need to go, take, leave, convalesce to see your family. We have people that this is what they're trained to do is to bring the bodies and to. You know, because I was, I was in my mind. I was being told like I was going to be the one giving his mother the flag, like you know, for and um.
Speaker 2:But that's also where something very pivotal in my life in the Navy happened, which was we were forced and I say forced because we didn't have a choice. They literally took the bus and took it there to go to Portsmouth and be seen by psychiatrists, right, and to fill all these questionnaires. And they ask all these questions. And at the time I didn't know, but it was kind of trying to build a database of like where we were at at that moment and then see how we will go from there, because from that point, every three months I had to do the same questions and you know that will force us to go.
Speaker 2:And I say force because I could tell you right now and, just being completely honest, because of my background, I don't know if I would have ever went and got sick help, because that was not the macho thing to do, and especially back in 2000, right, yeah, that would have not been something that I would have got up and say. You know the fact that I'm talking to people in this way and I'm being so angry or being so degrading to someone maybe I got issues, nope, I would just be like or he deserve it. So it was very pivotal because I would have not taken that step and I'm grateful the Navy made all of us, from the cold, to do that.
Speaker 1:And now that I'm thinking about it, like every single one of you have probably been in some, a trauma impacts you all, and there's not many people other than the ones that were on the McCain or the Fitzgerald or you guys that have really gone through something so horrific that impacted so many people, and so it makes sense that they'd want to know where you're at now, how you've coped since and and and and how you're doing it, so you so, in a way, it was I guess a blessing in disguise not that it happened, but that you were able to get the care that you needed.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. I like I said, and that's why then, after a while, after about a year, we had a choice whether you could stay part of the crew, because it was going to be treated as a pre-com unit because they had to fix the ship, or you could take orders. I wanted to take orders somewhere else, but for some reason they didn't have enough for San Diego, for a little semen, which to this day I find that very hard to believe, um. But I decided to stay with the ship. But what happened is, once we had to go back on board um, once she was, once she was getting fixed in Mississippi, I started to have, I had, I started to have flashback nightmares and like all these different things, and that's when I was diagnosed with PTSD, which was about a year later, and I was taken off the ship and sent into a short command.
Speaker 1:So I'll be able to go and get medical treatment and I have PTSD ever since yeah, and what fascinated me and you mentioned in the book, is that you didn't I mean, I don't know if you mentioned, I don't think you mentioned much in the way of medication. You, you mentioned much in the book is that you didn't. I mean, I don't know if you mentioned, I don't think you mentioned much in the way of medication. You mentioned much in the way of treatment, talk therapy and owning your shit and journaling, and I just think that that's sometimes the harder road but it's the better road. And nowadays there's even better ways that you probably weren't afforded, like EMDR, which is what I was able to have at my last duty station.
Speaker 1:That was a game changer where it short circuits a lot of those traumatic moments and then you can live in that moment for just a small period of time and grieve through it, and I've never experienced anything like that. It was incredible the impact that that experience had on me and my my journey with PTSD.
Speaker 2:So tell me a little bit about some of the ways in which you were able to be seen, some of the therapies that you received, and how it impacted you, how it changed you well they did started with medication, but I noticed that always one is bringing me down even more, so then I will be even more depressed because I like I have no energy to even see my daughter, like I love my daughter and it's the best thing that ever happened to me. And then, next, now my son, and there will be days that I would just be like I don't want to move from my couch and it would just be like these, these medicines were like downers, right. And then when I actually got smart to look at what the side effects were, I was like I don't want to take this. And of course, I didn't do the right thing.
Speaker 2:I just stopped taking it on my own, without talking to my psychiatrist, until like a month and a half later, and he's like you should be getting a new medication. You month and a half later, and he's like, uh, you should be getting a new medic. You know like you should be getting new ones. And I'm like, no, I still have them all. And he's like why haven't you be taking it? And I was like, cause I feel I'm not. Probably I feel like shit, like when I take it, right.
Speaker 1:That's the thing A lot of times. They'll send you to the psychiatrist first, and then you have to get a referral from the psychiatrist to a psychologist for some of these other kinds of treatments and we're only beginning, I feel, to open up the spectrum of all the different treatments that can be available that are not a pharmaceutical solution.
Speaker 2:So from there, you know, he took me to a different approach, which was like getting more into therapy and getting into like so most of my mind were to start at the beginning was a lot of reliving it. Right, like a lot of like I need you to walk me through kind of what I just did. Like, but even with more detail, like I remember one of them she wanted me to tell, to tell her like even how, what I was smelling at the time and then like what I was seeing, and there was a constant reliving it. Um, and then we will pause at some point, at some point, and she will tell me like how do you feel about that, or how do you?
Speaker 1:feel yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, and then I just constantly did that.
Speaker 2:What I will tell you, though, is, through the years is that, um, I started noticing, like, how it affect my body right, and how I knew that I was.
Speaker 2:I will be like in a really high and how, what, when I needed to go see someone, because I was starting to go down, and it will be with my temper, it would be with my lack of preaching, um, and then it will also manifest on my desire to like um feel whether it was wanted, or feel as as important, both out of my work and then with women, right, and then when those, when those things will peak, I will, I will be like I I need to go see someone. At the beginning, it wasn't like that, like I didn't, I didn't put it together right, like I would just who I was, until I went to england, um, and they had to send me out of town because the debate that I was there was very small and, um, the that counselor I don't know if she had both, you know, you know the social and then also like to do with like sexual behavior, but like she was able to merge and like find things by talking about my childhood and my past and the things that I went through and even got me to. First, she was the first person that I opened up about me being raped in the military, me in rape, um, and the military and uh. So then, like that brought up a lot of questions and like you know, how do you feel, how do you uh?
Speaker 1:so, yeah, so it's, it's been part of my life, uh, ever since I feel like a lot of times the therapist will not address the sexual side, because I was very promiscuous most of my teenage years, most of my 20s. Then I got married for seven years. Then I got divorced, became promiscuous again and there was so much hurt and so much pain that was behind that way of acting and the way of just moving so quickly with men and I think that with men, especially men who are womanizers or especially ones that are not like an honest, open relationships. We're not talking about that.
Speaker 1:We're talking about people like who date multiple women and are honest with the fact that they're dating multiple women or sleeping with multiple women, and we never address that in our society, we never have open conversations about it and that's what your book moves that theme throughout that you were just constantly dating different women that you were just constantly dating different women and these women didn't know that this stuff was wrong with you or that this was really what was behind this behavior.
Speaker 2:I'm sure that they didn't understand it yeah, and but what I will say because I like to take responsibility, right like they didn't know, right or they do, but they only knew like the cold. Right then like, for example, they know the rape part or or other things, and on how that all play into, and even my childhood, all those three things, how to play up to like how it, because it's all part of insecurities, right Like this need to feel wanted and get that attention get that attention to feel validated.
Speaker 2:It's all insecurities, right? So like they were not necessarily aware of all that stuff, but it was mostly because I was hiding it, and also I will use it myself as an excuse as to why.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 1:That's what you're talking about Absolutely, because you re-traumatize yourself when you've had that childhood trauma. So then suddenly it's like you didn't really heal from it and you didn't allow yourself to properly grieve for it and so you just continue to embrace relationships and dynamics that were played out in your childhood, whether it be for me chasing men that didn't want me, or constantly having this weird dynamic with another woman where power struggle, this weird dynamic with another woman where power struggle. I mean, I've had those all throughout my life and they are a direct reflection of the power struggle that me and my mother had growing up. And I still have to be very, very cautious and sensitive to working closely with women, because I know that if a woman tries to pull a power play on me, I just shut down and I get so stressed out about it.
Speaker 1:If a man does it, I'm kind of like, oh whatever. And I got to laugh it off and I don't even care.
Speaker 1:And maybe that's why I've been able to succeed so much in the military, because the way men act don't really bother me because I just don't have that issue, but when it comes to women, or the woman who pulls a game like that, because it triggers something from my childhood. So when you tell your story, I hear so much of my own in that you were sort of just replaying this need to be wanted and to be and to always have somebody around and always have this attention, because you felt abandoned by your mother you felt that your father wasn't really the man that you thought he was.
Speaker 1:And then you get into, you have coal happen and people there that that was traumatic and you had to work through that. So you were just constantly just kind of trying to figure out what you were going to do. And then during that time you still met amazing women.
Speaker 2:You got married, you had children, yeah, and that's the thing, especially like I said for my marriage right when I was married, if you would have asked me as it was happening and why I was because I cheated I would tell you the things that she was not doing. First of all, there's no reason to cheat In the sense of you are doing it because you choose to do it. That's how I believe, anyway.
Speaker 1:There's still responsibility on your end for doing the act. There's a reason why you're doing it. But if you don't own the fact that you made the mistake and yet you were dishonest, then you're never going to grow and you're never going to stop doing it.
Speaker 2:Well, even when, you know, these women, like I said, had all these wonderful things, I was still focused on like what, who else might like me or who else I could be with, and and and, and I'm just completely going to be honest here, and this is something that, like you know, my fiance knows to this day. It's a struggle, even to this day. Right, like it just in the sense of like, having to process those things, right, to be able to be like. Okay, like you know, let me find validation on, just simply on the fact that she's thinking about me and she said good morning to me or she did this, instead of trying to find validation from another individual like that, just things that I, I still have to process. It's not, it's not something that comes natural to like other people, they're just like I mean, that's one of the reasons I'm so obsessed with my work.
Speaker 1:And then, when work wasn't going to be the place where I could really express myself and be me anymore, then I was like oh, I got found podcasting, you know, I mean honestly, like I'm still that person that's struggling and trying to figure out my purpose and you know what I was meant to do and trying to get that validation somewhere, because that's what we do and we've been traumatized, we're just kind of chasing and then we got another person. We just joined a.
Speaker 1:Veronica Scott. She said, just join on a side note master chief, congratulations on your upcoming retirement. Yeah so you definitely got some friends. I noticed a lot of people from from my some of my audience that are enlisted. We're definitely tuning in and I'm just honored that you agreed to come on the show. And I think about how we met. I mean, I met you at a conference.
Speaker 2:It was a mental health summit.
Speaker 1:It was for NAB I-4. And I think you came and you gave a speech there, and so that's a great bridge, because I know we're kind of closing up the call soon. But after you go through all this therapy and this treatment and you had some of the marriages that didn't work out and now you're on this path suddenly this opportunity opens up for you to start sharing some of these experiences, correct?
Speaker 2:yeah, I was. Life is. It's funny like that, right, how you just happen to be in the right place the right time. So I went to mps naval postgraduate school so I received my master's. So because of that, I could only go to a specific commands, because, of course, the navy wants to get their money back from giving me that education and one of them will, please, cyber command here in maryland. Um, I get here and I put on nine, like I. The results come out literally like a week after I check in. So I'm a master chief.
Speaker 2:I go check into my cmc at the time and he's reading my bio and he's just sees that I was on the call, the time frame, and he's like were you there? When everyone's like yes. So then he just straight looks at me. He's like have you heard about warrior toughness? And I was like, nope, I haven't heard anything because this is back in 2022.
Speaker 2:And he's like he started explaining to me and how he goes. He used to be the one that went around to teach other commands within our domain. All the other 35, 37 commands are under umbrella, um, and he would be. He said like I will have a chaplain to talk about the soul. I have a resilient officer to talk about the mind and he's like I'm the warrior right, that's the enlisted, and he's like I can't think of someone that will be best suited to be that person. And he was like are you comfortable talking about the cold? Funny enough, my part of healing about the cult is talking about it. Some people don't talk about it. I could talk about it over and over and over and over and it just actually makes me feel better, like that's how.
Speaker 1:I let it.
Speaker 2:When you talk about a traumatic experience.
Speaker 1:I can tell you, when I shared that, about my complex trauma, PTSD, and I actually went into some of the ways in which I felt abandoned by my parents, some of the ways in which I felt abandoned by my parents. It has made me so much more able to understand and process it and it doesn't trigger me anymore Like I can. I can think about it now and not feel that anger and that madness that I felt for so many years. I don't feel it anymore. It's crazy yeah.
Speaker 2:So then we still had, you know, cause there was a mandate that came from now, by four, that we needed to go and teach all these different commands. So then I started traveling and it started with that. It started because I needed to teach the word toughness course. Um, cause, you know, people will go and get the NEC, but that will be like one person for 300 people. So then we will go and teach my team, the three of us, the chaplain, the resident officer, me and we will go to the command, kind of like. Think about when they do dc training, that you're doing it on board the ship and and in divisions that are more willing to let you go do something if you're still on the command and it is sending you to a school. So then we will build a team for that, for the water covenant, so it will be more than one person.
Speaker 2:And while I was doing that, people will be like, hey, you know, have you ever thought about writing a book? Have you ever thought about sharing your experiences and talking on a larger platform? And I was like, well, I don't mind it, but I don't. I know the cold is something that it's like it was only 300 of us that went through it, right. But I also don't feel like my life is nothing special. I feel like we all have trauma. We all have deal with things in life, right. So at first it was very like what am I going to be writing about? Or what am I going to be talking about that like someone else cannot? And then I started to step back and I was like, if I can make the difference from one person for whatever that group that I'm talking to, then I'm doing something right and if anything else, it it helped me because I love meeting sailors, I love traveling and, yeah, and I love talking about, uh, being resilient, because that's that's how that's beyond.
Speaker 2:Theiliency is not just about the Navy and I'm very big on understanding your why, having a purpose and, as I said earlier when I was talking about which I didn't know back then, that I wanted to go back to my mother. That was my purpose back then and, as life has continued with changing from my mother, it went to my children and now it's still my children. But it's also like, what is my legacy Right? And when you find those, that, that purpose, that why or why are you doing the things that you do.
Speaker 2:It allowed you to think of things like okay, this might look like I'm being selfish or or it's about me that I'm talking about this experiences, but it's more about what it might do to other people. And I can tell you I've been very blessed that I've been to a lot of places where sailors have taken me to the side and either said thank you for hearing someone that felt the same way they feel or they're going through the same things, or have dealt with mental health. Or even to the extreme, where I had a sailor that literally said can you go with me after I spoke in that command, can you go with me to the hospital right now? Because after hearing you, I feel comfortable going and speaking to someone, and that meant the world to me, that the sailor was open enough to do that yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I mean it just shows you the power of sharing your story and how sharing stories heals, heals everyone. I mean that's what your book is all about. I mean this. Like I said, this is probably one of the upside down. This is probably one of the best memoirs I've ever read. I mean, it is so well written I think that's what also like the grammar and the organization of it. I mean I don't know if you had a book coach or how you even did this.
Speaker 2:That's why, if you go and see in the page, the co-author is my fiancee, because she helped me with my Spanglish, because it was not I could tell stories, but she helped me with making sure that it was making sense, that it was done properly. So kudos to her.
Speaker 1:It is so good, please tell her. I said that I mean, and I read a lot of people's books and, as I told you earlier, at first I'm like I'm reading all this backstory and backstory and I'm like, okay, okay, where's this going? And then the Cole. And then you're just you're so transfixed by the Cole story that you you're just kind of hanging in there and then you realize like, oh, wait a minute, there's this whole backstory. I mean that's when I realized how important it was for me to understand the trauma with your mother and your father and the things growing up and the ways in which you started being a basically being a player at a very young age. Like this was a learned behavior and a habit. You were like, well, shit, I can get women, I can get this intention, and you and I was the same way with men, and so, and when you know that you've had that from a very young age and for me it was associated with drinking, it was associated with having a good time, I mean it was, it was.
Speaker 1:and that's where it's hard to even reconcile to this day, and I think you mentioned that you today, this day, you kind of struggle with it because there were parts of it that were really fun and really exciting yeah, it doesn't go away just because you don't do it anymore and so you have to reconcile, like, okay, well, is that going to put me on the path for my legacy and for the things that are higher priorities, that I know now that I appreciate and I love. But I, I just applaud you so much. It was such a great book and I'm so glad that you put it out there.
Speaker 1:It's a wonderful contribution to a sacred to like military history military stories and I think this needs to be like on, like Blue Jacket reading lists or something like that. I really do, and I hope my show has done a little part to help you get there, because it's a great book.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it right. I think the best thing about it, or the biggest thing about it is, is this transparency in the sense of, like I'm a man full of flaws, I still make mistakes today, uh, I still struggle with a lot of things, um, but we can still get the goals that we want and even be successful.
Speaker 2:I'm not trying to be cocky, but I can consider myself successful and understand that we still have those issues right. It doesn't need to take everything away from us or not achieve the things that we want to do. We just have to acknowledge it and we need to try to be better each day. How that looks like, that's up to you, but it it does, that's the goal. It just will be the best version of ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think that's what I really liked about it is that it just shows it Like I always call like us trauma kids.
Speaker 1:It shows that like you know, even even the people that had some shit growing up or has has some painful struggles, and again, my struggles compared to maybe other people's is nothing or whatever, but um, it just shows that, like anybody, anybody can make it. Anybody can be a little bit better. Um, even even I watch a show called soft white underbelly and God bless Mark Leda for all the good work he's doing, uh, working with those people in Skid Row and elsewhere, because you know their best that they can do might just be the fact that they I don't know find a warm tent that's better than the tent that they were in before.
Speaker 1:I mean you really have to like look at it like holistically and say everybody's trying to do the best they can with what they have where they are, and you've definitely shown that there's that growth. Where can people find you, and is there anything else that I haven't covered on?
Speaker 2:No, I'm easy to find. I don't have nothing like too crazy, I'm just a regular guy on Instagram. You put my name, my first name, and you'll find me and we'll come up. Same thing on Facebook and the LinkedIn as well, and you know, thank you for the opportunity. That's, first and foremost, right.
Speaker 2:It's been a pleasure talking and it's been very good to like kind of bounce, even before we started, some of the things that we share just for our own and the ways of like how we have to live our lives, just for our own, and the ways of like how we have to live our lives. And, yeah, I'm thankful for your transparency as well, right as all the things that you, the other podcasts that you have, and the things that you have shared with people. And I see all the things that you you know you're right as you going on to have done stories that gone through different places and even at SUPCS. I feel like we need more people like that to be transparent in the sense of like again, you can still be successful, you can still achieve a lot, but we're all human.
Speaker 2:No one, no one is not. It doesn't have a little bit of demons going on, like there's always. There's always something that we have to worry about. If it's not you, then it's someone that you care and love about it. They're struggling with something, and that becomes your burden as well. So give yourself grace, continue to try to be the best version of yourself and understand that having a purpose can allow you to get away from a lot of dark places.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Find your purpose and I think I've definitely found mine with the stories of service podcast and serving in the Navy as a PAO. I've had a wonderful career, all right well, thank you so much. I'm going to meet you backstage and say goodbye, but I'm going to go full screen real quick and say goodbye to the audience. Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 2:You can see I'm starting to get my office a little bit more decorated.
Speaker 1:we'll do be doing some more soon, but I do like the neon lights. I thought that was a nice touch. So very special thanks to the husband for helping me put together that. Next week I'm going to be having Bill Brown on the show. He is a named seal my first seal. He hosts the yearly New York City Hudson Street Hudson River swim and he is also a huge advocate for Pete Higgseth, the prospective sec def, who you may have seen me doing postings on as well. So I'm really I can't wait to talk to him, to get his story and hear more about what he's up to. He's now a lawyer with the Tim Carlittore law firm, so really excited to have him on. Hope you guys have a wonderful rest of your day. As I always finish these calls please take care of yourself, take care of each other and bye-bye now.